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Hi guys. I wanted to know your thoughts on an action I have trouble combating. The dark-check from an opponent that is OOP.
I’ve been watching stream games and listening to CLP, I have not seen or heard a case about dark-checking. I got curious about this action while I was going through my hand histories. I have notes on two hands I was involved with where my opponent checked in the dark while OOP on me.
However, its not only the hands i’ve been involved with, I’ve seen it a lot at the games I’m at.
The two hands in question:
Hand 1
Hero stack: 400
Hero hand: A10c
Hero position: MP1Villain stack: 300
Villain hand: 99
Villain position: SBPreflop:
Utg limps, Hero iso-raise to 18, villain calls, limper foldsFlop: 7c 5s 2s
Villain checks in the dark, hero checksTurn: 2h
villain checks in the dark, hero checksRiver: 8d
Villain bets 20, hero callsVillain in this hand had been doing a lot of weird plays. He limp-shoved with 55 preflop and hit a set. He had shoved nearly 100BB with 78h when the flop gave him a flush draw. I think my perceived image to him at the time was pretty-tight and he was out of position on me. Which was the only conclusion I made after seeing what he showed up with.
When he checked in the dark twice, it really threw me off and I made the call on the river, just to see what he was up to. I was surprised to see he had an over-pair. I concluded this guy plays weird and trappy
Hand 2
Hero stack: 350
Hero hand: AQc
Hero position: HJVillain stack: 200
Villain hand: Q8s
Villain position: BBPreflop:
Hero opens to 15, only villain callsFlop: 3s 2s 9h
Villain dark check, hero checksTurn: Ks
Villain dark check, hero checksRiver: Ah
Villain dark check, hero checksSuch a weird line. I think the villains in both hands lost lots of value with their line. As played, I think Sklansky would say that I won the hand, by losing the minimum. But I only lost the minimum because I didnt know what to do when with all the dark checking.
Could it be a move to induce a bluff?
The dark-check is very villain dependent, and I’ve seen it mean a few things depending on the player.
A lot of guys will dark check hands on the flop like small pairs or suited connectors. Hands they will either smash the flop (and check to trap) or miss the flop (and fold). That kind of seems like what hand 1 is. This player probably doesn’t know how to play middle pairs, hence the limp-call. Then he gets a miracle runout and has an overpair on the river so he bets. If that flop comes K-10-2, you probably bet and he probably folds. He just got lucky here with the board and got some late value.
Hand 2 he was definitely trying to induce a bluff from you and check-raise. Generally someone with a hand like yours will stab at the pot and they will raise.
I don’t think this play is ever profitable long-run. I like you way you handled both of these hands. You have to think here – by betting, are you ever getting worse to call, or are you ever getting better to fold? In hand 1 the answer to both is no. In hand 2, you might get called by a king, but I think it’s far more likely that he’s slow playing something or he has garbage.
There are only two instances when I’ll check in the dark. Most of the time is when it’s just a fun table and I do it because it’s fun for the game. I never do it with a big hand, usually garbage from the small blind. It’s never a great play, it’s just about keeping a fun game fun. In these cases, I’ll usually check-dark on the flop and bet in the dark on the turn. Kind of makes for a fun atmosphere at the low stakes and makes people think I play looser than I actually do.
The only other time I will check-dark is in a multi-way raised pot when I call in the small-blind with a small pocket-pair or suited connector. There are pretty much no flops that I will lead at in these scenarios – I’ll often check-raise if I hit or just fold when I miss.
Just keep an eye on players that do this. Figure out if they’re just bad players or if they are trying to trap. You can be aggressive against them for a street or two, but if they keep calling they have something. If you hit you definitely want to bet – you want to show the not to play those games against you. But I wouldn’t go too crazy with A high. Keep playing just like you did in these two hands until you know the players a bit better.
By the way, was that you in the YouTube chat for Bart’s call-in show on Monday? It’s a good show even if you have to wade through some really questionable calls.
John, thank you for the insight. I will be cautious with these types of players the next time I face their dark-check. No one at my game is doing it for fun, apparently they are doing it for an unprofitable reason.
I know one player who does this, when he is OOP in single-raised multiway pots. He is a good player. He tends to do it because he has a marginal hand and hoping to hit the flop or some equity. But checking in the dark just disrupts the flow of the game I think.
The two villains in the hand are bad-trappy players, when I think about spots I’ve seen them in.
Yes that was me in the Youtube chat early in the call-in show. I stop paying attention to the chat before the first call-in because I was driving. If I missed you in the chat, sorry.
I stopped being a subscription NIT and asked him which subscription I should get. I did get what he suggested in the show. Lots of good stuff on there. I love his podcast about Live Tells, he covers everything I see on the felt and now I know how to extract max value or save chips. Been studying it pretty hard and anxious to get back on the felt this weekend.
This show was very interesting. The hands that call in were filled with great information. The first hand was amazing. AK or 1010 makes a straight on the turn in a 4bet pot, the hero knew how to play his image as well. But hero folded the best hand.
I didn’t say anything til a lot later, just saw you name and wondered if that was you. It’s usually just a few regulars in chat so your name stuck out. I was just wondering if you caught his show because it’s really good for seeing how others play hands, kind of like here. I get practice here reading this hands even though I only play once or twice a month.
I’m happy to contribute.
I really want to get good and move up in stakes. Posting hands, CPL, and reading books are what I’m doing to get there.
It’s hard to narrow ranges down on CLP. I’m usually wrong and amazed at what villains show up with. But I’m not giving up!
There’s a saying, “The more you know, the less you’ll have to fear”
It’s somewhat harder to range those hands because the callers are often terrible at understanding their opponents ranges, so it makes it hard for us to range the villains because we don’t have a good description of them.
You’ll see it all of the time. “This is a solid, good thinking player” > player proceeds to call a 3-bet with AX offsuit.
“Really tight player, only raising with JJ+ AKs” > player proceeds to 3-bet with A5 suited.
Don’t be upset that you’re not ranging the players well on these calls. You’re only getting partial information because you’re basing it off of someone elses read. You’ll get better and you’ll start to see the goofy things that players do, all without risking any money.
Dark checking to the aggressor on the flop might seem unusual, but many players check 100 percent of their hands OOP to the pre-flop raiser. For those types of players, dark checking is literally no different than waiting to see the flop and then checking.
A dark-check on turns and rivers needs to met with more thought, but not necessarily more thought than a simple standard check on those streets. However your proceed, make sure you are balancing your range with your best hands and your worst hands that either block some of his value hands (like, say, those with an Ace in them), or those that don’t block his bluff combos. Also, you should be polarizing your range even further on rivers when facing a check.
In general, the best players typically don’t dark check on turns and rivers. I find it mainly to be more a tactic of recs who are trying to get cute in some way. Don’t let one or two bad experiences with this move frustrate you. Always try to think about what are the best hands you will have, and what are the worst hands you could have, and balance your action based on that.I talked to a guy that was dark checking a lot of hands OOP. He said it gave him position by making the other guy act first, then he could decide what to do next. I politely nodded my head and hopefully waited til I turned by head to roll my eyes and scoff at him.
Many times the dark check is simply to confuse the PF bettor. If it is a heads up pot, I have taken a rather unconventional approach to the dark check. I bet dark.
If I am the PF raiser I am most likely going to C bet in position. If I am probably going to C bet anyway, betting dark transfers the confusion back to the OOP player. The dark bet may indicate a big pair or at least it could be interpreted as a big pair. If you do have a strong hand and/or smash the flop you may be more likely to get called or even raised after the dark bet. If you miss the flop the dark bet may invoke a fold from a better hand.
While this may not be the most optimal strategy it has worked for me on several occasions. And it seems to keep them from dark checking in the future.
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