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Hi guys. I have a hand here where I think I may have missed value on the river. Thankfully, I won the hand, but wanted to know if there was any sizing I could’ve used to get villain to call on the river. Please let me know.
Hero stack: 350
Hero position: BTN
Hero hand: A8oVillain stack: 400
Villain position: UTG
Villain hand: ???Preflop:
Villain limps, folds to hero, hero bets 20, blinds fold, villain callsPot: 44
Flop: 873 hcc
Villain checks, hero bets 36, villain callsPot: 116
Turn: Js
Villain checks, hero bets 60, villain callsPot: 236
River: Kh
Villain bets 3, hero raises to 75, villain foldsVillain is a regular, but this was the first time I was involved in a hand with him. We have been at the same table and he has seen me make thin value-bets to get a call. However, I’ve never seen villain show his hands and not sure the type to peg him as.
I’m gonna be honest, I did not think villain had a draw here. When villain put out a small bet on the river, I know he’s trying to get to a cheap showdown.
I tried to think of hands that villain could have given his action: limp calling with preflop, check-call the flop, check-call the turn, and a small lead on the river. The turn and river board overcards, but I have position and villain has checked to me. Both these cards are in my raising range, but I still wanted to target hands such as: weaker 8, 66, 55, 7x, or 3x.
I took a minute on the river and discounted draws in his hands, since he wanted to have a cheap showdown. I believed I was still ahead, and did not believe he had a J or K. I raised to a sizing to give him the right odds to call. But he got away.
I’m starting to think my opponents understand what my actions mean.
Villian bets $ 3.00 on the river?????
or was it $30?
I think if 3 only (weird) same as a check to me, then 75 can get weak Jx and Kx even to fold out as well as better pairs such as 9s 10s even Qs maybe if you feel that’s likely part of his range. So, you’d be bluffing here. which is cool with me..but what is the fold equity here?
If you really felt ahead, like you say, I would think an easy call is best. unlikely to get a call from less (even if it was a $30 bet) for value, yet could get a nasty reraise from the villian. my thoughs…..
I really like all streets of action on your part but if it were me I’d be happy with a cheap show down. and no river bet from me..not sure of the fold equity on the river bet bluffThat is some of the thinnest value I have seen in a long time. I would actually say that betting your 8 here is more turning it into a bluff. If A8o is in your “value range” you need to have soooo many bluffs to balance out how frequently you are betting for value.
A hand like KT or JT would fit into a good thin value range but trying to value bet what is now 3rd pair on a board that has a lot of missed draws with 9Ts, 56s and all the clubs. I would guess that villains range mostly consists of small pairs, and missed flush draws which are not calling much of a bet at all. I’m mainly putting villain on Ace high flush draw with no pair.
Also, what do you do in the event this player jams? Are you really happy to call of here with 3rd pair for your stack when you have been representing strength this entire time? I am expecting you to have missed draws, sets, pair plus draw and two pair. I see you playing 78, 77, 88, 33, KK, JJ, this way for value and 9T, Axcc as bluffs and some suited Jx like KJc, JTc, maybe even J9 that you play for thin value.
I discounted 99, 1010, jj, qq, based on his min-bet on the river.
If I try to think of my perceived range, raising from late position: AJ, AK, KQ, KJ could be in my hand. But it’s difficult for me to be in their shoes. The min-bet is just weird and begging to be taken away. I would think pairs 1010+ would actually make a larger bet than $3, and should be calling my thin-value bet.
LOL David. Yes that was extremely thin, an amount I thought villain would call at the time. I guess it looked too suspicious.
I think my turn bet may have been too small. Villain is getting 3-1 immediate odds to call if he was on a draw. Perhaps he made a blocker bet with Ace-high, but I just haven’t seen that at these stakes.
Had villain jammed my raise on the river, with 3rd pair, I would’ve folded. I don’t think I’ll ever be good there, facing a check-raise with third pair. If villain was bluffing me, good for him.
Again, I don’t see a value bet here…
You’re not likely to get called by less often enough
(IMO) so, the only reason to bet is to fold out weak but better hands which of course is a bluff then. Which I kinda like that line here. I does seem very unlikely to face a jam here if you bet so not much danger in a bluff bet from you. ( and you’d have to fold or make a hero call.)I think I see your points. If villain were to be holding maybe Jx, this would be a bluff. This is a great hand, I might call this into CLP.
How has no one commented on the fact that you raised A8 off…. it’s a fold. Calling it on the button for 3 maybe.. regardless that’s a fold. You have no flush draw, no wheel draw, and a weak ass kicker… why are you raising it to 20? Johnnie has his work cut out for him. Watch him play, he’s never playing that trash.
Hi Zach, that’s good point. You’re right, this hand has very little potential. I’m usually folding this when facing an early position raise or there are multi-limpers in front of me.
When villain limped UTG and it folded to me, I kinda ignored it and raised trying to steal the blinds. I would open larger in late position to steal. No one has caught on to my pattern at my game, so I haven’t found a reason to change it up.
If the villain had limped-reraised, its an easy fold for me. Instead he limp-called and is playing poker OOP against me.
I’m with David on this one – I don’t really think this is a value bet. What worse hands to you get called here by? Maybe A7 calls you if they think you were on AQcc or ATcc. This is a streets of value hand at best. Only way you are getting called here by worse is if you’re a maniac.
As for villain’s $3 river bet? This is one of two things. This is either a blocker bet trying to see a cheap showdown, or it’s an attempt to get you to raise so he can 3-bet you. He’s folding the first option, and you’re losing the second option. Some players just do goofy things.
And the raise of A8o on the button is fine. You have one limper and the blinds left – you should be good here. But this is one of those hands where you either win a small pot and lose a big one. I’m probably c-betting most flops but not sticking too much more money in there with 2-pair plus.
Wait… John and I agree on a hand!… well I don’t see the 4 horsemen so I guess the world isn’t ending yet.
And Zach raising A8o on the button over 1 limp is a fine play I think. We have position and Ace high which is likely to be ahead of a limpers limp range (depending on just how wide it is). Once he has top pair I think a bet is in order for value but once the J and K come and you keep betting you are over repping your hand.
Lol David. All you guys are great with all the feedback. I’m glad it is this hand that brought you guys together.
I’m sorry I don’t have more info on the villain, as I barely play with him and don’t see what hands he shows up with.
John, I was trying to target weaker 8 or smaller pocket pairs on the river. I guess its hard for him to call, since I fired on all three streets and two over-cards are on the board. It probably looks like I have two pair here from his point of view.
Dave, his check-call, check-call, small lead was so weak to me. I would’ve probably raised him with Ace-high. Ofcoarse, I was fully prepared to bet-fold if there was any aggression from him.
If you were to continuously raise A8 off to $20 in a 1-3 game.. if you don’t connect with the flop and someone bets at all… you have to fold? It’s just not a money-making decision. If it’s a hand you would fold normally it’s not a raise just bc you’re on the button? You can raise a hand you may normally just call with bc of your positioning.. but a hand that’s a fold shouldn’t just become a raise bc of your position. It will only get you into bad spots.
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