- This topic has 3 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Hi guys. Got another hand last night with some interesting preflop and flop action. Then I screwed up on the turn and river =). I was doing well at the table and really thought I was playing my A game. Then this hand happened and it reminded me that I’m still making mistakes. River check-raises are not bluffs at these stakes.
I’ve never seen this villain before. Complete unknown to me. He was involved in some big pots and showing up with premium hands only.
Hero stack: 450
Hero hand: KQhh
Hero position: BTNVillain stack: 600
Villain hand: 8d 9h
Villain position: UTGPreflop:
Villain open limps, 5 limpers in the field, hero raises to 35, villain calls, and limper in the CUT callsPot: 102
Flop: 10 9 3 r –
Villain leads for 15, CUT-limper calls, hero raises to 60, villain calls, CUT foldsPot: 222
Turn: 9c – brings a back door flush draw
Villain checks, hero checksPot: 222
River: Kc
Villain checks, hero bets 120, villain check-raise to 240, hero tank-callsPreflop, I was hoping to take the pot uncontested with this hand. I had been winning a few medium size pots without going to showdown at this point. Could be the reason why villain wanted to get sticky with me. When he called my raise, having open limped, I think I was safe from AA or KK. I’m also blocking KK combo. I didn’t know what range to put him on at the moment and I tried to be cautious about his action.
Villain donks small on the flop. I read this action as: not a set, likely top-pair, maybe J10, or A10. Could he really have QQ, KK, or AA here?
I had seen Bart’s video “Bart plays a lot of aces” where he was in a similar situation. Bart was the PFR with KJo, his opponent who is OOP leads out on a 9 high board. Bart raises him, and gets the donk-better to fold. I decided to get him to fold with my equity: Two overs, gut-shot straight draw. I bump it up, looking to rep an over-pair.
To my dismay, villain calls. “Sticky bastard” I said to myself. This guy has a hand and I really thought: top pair, maybe a draw that was trying to put out his own price, or JJ.
I may have missed a bet here on the turn. I think this is where I really screwed up. He checks. My perceived ranged is probably very strong.
To be honest, I checked because I didn’t know what to do at this point. I had hoped he would’ve folded on the flop, but then my plan went down the drain! I checked to get a free turn card.
I hit my K on the river. The opponent checks to me and I think my hand is good here. If he had anything else other than top-pair here, I wouldn’t have checked to me. I bet out, looking to regain some of the missed value from the turn.
I get checked-min raised. This confused me.
Off the felt, I learned that a river-check raise at these stakes, is usually not a bluff. Opponents are not capable of turning made hands into a bluff as well. I learned all this, but I failed to apply on the table in this hand. But hey! What better way to make sure its ingrained now!
I rewind the hand in my head. He open-limped, called my large preflop raise, donk-leads on the flop, calls my reraise, checks the turn, and then check-raise the river. At the time, I strongly believed he had a 10 on the flop. It was possible he was holding K10, but I’m holding a blocker, and there are only 3 combos left.
If he was holding A10, the paired 99 would give him two pair with a strong-kicker.
I discounted pocket 33 from his hand, but thought it could still be a possibility he was slow playing it.
Curiosity got the best of me. I called and was shown the 89o. I kinda slow-rolled him. I didn’t mean to, but I was kinda stunned by his play. Would have never put him on that given his preflop and flop action.
But what I learned from this hand:
1) I’m getting better with my tilt. I may have been suprised by his hand, but I wasn’t upset either. I was just hoping he’ll stick around for the next hour or so =)
2) I need to have the nuts to call a river check-raise. Opponents at these stake will not make aggressive moves on the river, if they do not have the nuts. I’m sure someone with the second nuts or maybe the third-nut flush will not make aggressive moves on 5th street.
Hi Han,
This flop raise is simply way too small to generate much fold equity, if any. The pot is already over $100+the $15 from the donk better and an additional $15 from the co. A $60 raise here simply won’t cut it. I like this hand to bluff with (especially if it has bdfd potential), and I think we can credibly raise to a size in the $110-$120 region, so that we can get stacks in on the turn and apply maximum pressure. As for the co, I don’t put a whole lot of stock into his flatting range otf, but hard to say. Could be peeling cheap with a weak draw, could be calling to induce a raise by the pfr, hard to tell. In general though, I like this spot to bluff, perhaps with an even wider range than normal, as I think you can generate many folds either on this street or the turn; reason being the donk-bettor’s range is often going to be capped to draws and weak pairs, and the co’s range doesn’t connect all the strong with this flop (does co play 9Ts this way? 99?) As for the turn, as played, I think we should be betting here mostly for the same reasons we should be raising wider on the flop. V is obv a loose-fish, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see him peel this flop with a hand like 88 after donking for 15, so a turn bet I think is optimal, but checking isn’t terrible either. I think a hand with a little more equity such as JQs or a flush draw maybe better but KQ is fine. As for the river, V’s open-limp then call oop and donk for <1/5 pot indicates to me a very weak, fishy player, regardless of what his range may look like. If he has 89o here and played it this way, I think it’s very reasonable to assume he may have 78, J8, JQ + the myriad of other straight draws and play them in a similar way. As played on this river, against this type of opponent, getting nearly 5:1 on a call against what is clearly a total moron, you’ll need a crowbar to pry me away from KQ. Matter of fact, KQ may be better to have here than AK as we block the nut straight.
I don’t think V will play Tx this way, but given the clear amount of garbo in his pre-flop range, I think folding this river would be nitting it up a little too much. Also, I’m not really sure what lead you to the conclusion that a river xr is never a bluff at these stakes, but I would suggest eliminating those kinds of thoughts as they can lead to making huge incorrect assumptions about our opponents in a vacuum and can be very costly. Just my 2 cents, interested in what others have to say.Hi Han,
I’d say that 89o UTG is definitely a fold, however not for this guy.. oh well. I like your ISO raise size in position, squeezing dead money with a hand that plays really well after the flop. There’s 102 in the pot already, and he donk bets 15 into 102 that’s always weakness. I like the raise, but I’d go for the $80-100 raise with 2 overs and a gutter to the nuts: calling in that spot looks incredibly weak on a dry board texture, great job taking the lead on the hand. When the turns a 9 and he checks I like the check back: he’s going to have a lot of of 9’s in his range but since you didn’t improve and pick up any more equity it’s going to be tough winning with king high, it sucks but you’re gonna have to shut down a lot because he sounds like he’s impossible to bluff seeing how sticky he is. Plus, since you ISO raised preflop, and you raised again on the flop, you never have just a naked 9 except MAYBE A9 but it’s so unlikely. You’re basically repping a set of 9’s on the flop that turned into quads but it’s so unlikely (basically you never have a 9 in your hand and your opponent probably knows that) especially since he has a 9. Rivers a king. He checks… again… you improve to top pair. It’s really tricky, because you’re supposed to go for value and get called by 10x combinations and pocket pairs like 8’s and 7’s and maybe Jacks (but his preflop action he never has jacks plus).. it’s a really interesting hand, Han. All I can say on the river is, normally a min check raise on the river at lower stakes is for value, and never a bluff. Idk, I could be a total idiot with my thought process but everything about the hand led me to believe that you’re not good.
Yes, it’s really unfortunate that he called your raise OOP with 89o. It’s unfortunate that he donk bet into you on the flop with middle pair, called your raise, and he drilled the turn and checked to you. And then check raised you on the river when you made top pair. Idk. The check raise just screamed trap to me. Unless you have a relatively nutted hand, never call a CR on the river.. it’s almost always for value at lower stakes.
Good luck at the tables Han!
@Sugarmaan, you are absolutely right about my flop-raise. This is a leak I have and really trying hard to plug up. I lost track of the pot-size in relation to the bet sizing. Looking at this hand off the felt, he clearly had the immediate pot-odds + implied odds to make the call.
Its not the first time I’ve made these betting mistakes as well. Online poker is easy, because the pot size is right there. The pot size in live games is hard for me, cause I’m trying to keep track of too much, especially when it goes multi-way. One thing I’m trying to do, is use larger chip denominations so it’s easier for me to know what’s in the pot.
I’m glad you liked my play, even though I made a bet-sizing error. No crowbar needed=)
At these stakes, I’ve never seen my opponents check-raise as a bluff, or turning marginal hands into a bluff. Bart Hanson is a strong believer of this as well and what I’ve seen so far supports that idea.
Donk-betting is a common thing at this stake and and in my games. It is almost always a top-pair type of hand. It really stunned me when he showed up with 89o and donk-calling with middle pair. But again, my bet-sizing kept him in. Had I increased my bet sizing as you suggested, I may have gotten him to fold.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.