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Hi guys. I played a hand last weekend that really affected my mental game for the rest of the session. I was mentally in a terrible place. I believe Jared Tendler called it Desperation Tilt. However, I learned a great deal about my game and a big weakness I have. I will be brutally honest and I would welcome your most honest feedback and suggestions as well.
To prefix the villain in this hand. He was a maniac at the table. However, he appeared to be a smart maniac, knowing how to apply pressure intelligently to opponents. It was really hard to tell whether he was good or not. His table talk made him seem like an amateur, telling his opponents that he had position on them, when in fact he was out of position. He would show up with an extremely wide range, and when he got any piece of the flop or any equity, he would fire out bets. When he was short stacked ~$100, he’d shove on the flop. When he built a stack, he overbet the pot and got his opponents to fold.
This casino allows for the players to do a weird “intimidation check” where, they would grab a decent amount of chips, moved out as if to bet, and tap the table to check. Or they would fake a bet and quickly pull the chips back to check. All this to try to get a reaction from the opponent. Unfortunately for this type of player, I know what this behavior means, and I just did not have a decent hand to extract value from them. This villain, was doing this at the table, and each time, I was right about his holdings. He also made a lot of gestures that were meant to intimidate his opponents.
Villain in this hand had been moving around a lot as well. In this hand, he was directly to my right with a big stack.
Hero stack: 550
Hero hand: AKs
Hero position: MP2V1 stack: ~800
V1 hand: QQ
V1 position: MP1V2 stack: 80
V2 hand: ???
V2 position: BBPreflop:
Folds to V1, V1 opens to 12, Hero 3-bets to 35, V2 shoves, V1 calls, Hero callsFlop: A 10 J r (no spades)
V1 leads for $100, Hero tanks, V1 calls the clock, Hero callsTurn: 3c
V1 leads for $200 and immediately calls the clock, Hero tank-foldsRiver: blank
It was a terrible fold. Prior to this hand I had told myself, if I am involved with this opponent, and if I have top-pair with a strong kicker, I would go with it. I didn’t follow with my strategy against this guy, and I’ll try to explain why I made such a bad fold.
I had been watching this guy do all kinds of funky stuff at the table to put a lot of pressure or doubt on his opponents.
Preflop, I really like my hand and spot against this guy. He was too my right with a huge stack and I had a good hand to isolate him. V2 4bet shove, did not bother me too much, as he was just as wide at V1 and was really there to gamble. I thought he was just trying to steal with a mediocre hand.
V1 calls the 4bet shove, but I watched him do it in an “intimidating” manner again. He grabbed a tall stack with both hands and smacked them in the middle. The stack was little more than the all-in, so it was simply a call, and the dealer threw back the excess to him.
I call, thinking I have position and how weird V1 called the all-in from V2.
The flop comes and I’m lost. V1 donks into me. V2 tells his neighbors “that’s not a good flop for me” and I’m trying to listen to deduce what V1 may have. The dealer is trying to tell him he shouldn’t be discussing his hand, while there is still action. V2 argues that he’s talking about his hand only, but the dealer insisted.
Meanwhile, I’m am trying my hardest to figure out what he has that will bet at this flop so strongly. My mind is over taken by my emotion, and immediately fear sets of 10 or jacks, but my instincts are telling me the what the donk-bet from this player really means. I don’t know if V1 can sense my inner turmoil. He calls the clock on me.
At the table, when V1 called the clock on me, which was about a minute after the flop came, I had a strong feeling about what it meant, that he didn’t want me to call. I’m still battling with my emotions, and push out a stack of red, making the call with 30 seconds left.
I will be honest here. I called without even thinking of what he may have. I called because my gut told me to call. I was not thinking of my strategy against this opponent. I was only thinking about the absolute size of the bet and how scared I was of the sizing. I did not even think about the size relative to the pot.
The turn. A small part of me said, that card does not change anything. And without skipping a beat, he pushes two red stacks in, declaring the amount to the dealer, and immediately calls for the clock again.
“Who calls the clock twice on someone?!” was the first thought in my head.
Then my attention was on the bet size. And that was all I was thinking about. I glance over at him. He’s seated a little further away from the table than usual, and was a sign he had a marginal hand. Then he turned and glared at me the whole time the clock was running down.
All I can think of, with the remaining time left, was the $200 bet. I was not thinking of how much was in the pot. I was not thinking of pot-odds. I was not thinking of board texture. I was not thinking of hands I beat or his weak range.
I had one question for myself: “Do I really want to risk losing $200?”
Yup. I asked that question. I was afraid of the $200 bet and the possibility of losing it. Classical Scared Money.
2 seconds left on the clock and I mucked.
He flips his hand over, and my heart sank to the deepest part I can imagine. I looked calm at the table, but I had lost it inside. My girlfriend knew what I folded and could tell that I made a huge mistake.
V1 then goes on his usual spew and tried to justify his actions. He then asked me if I had a draw. I lied to him, saying “I had a pair of Jacks, and was trying to figure out if you had the ace.” Revenge tilt, I wanted to play mind games with him too, and couldn’t wait for the next hand with him.
He replies with, “I commend you on your fold. Plus I had position on you”
When he uttered that last sentence, it was downhill for me, mentally and emotionally. I was in a place I had never been before. It felt like pure desperation and just wanting to get back at him. It felt like the whole table knew I made a bad fold and I couldn’t handle how they judged me.
“How could I let this terrible player get the best of me!”
I folded because he bet $200. An amount that made me uncomfortable. I sat there for the next hour, thinking about that spot and donking away $300.
“How am I suppose to move up in stakes, if I get scared of a $200 bet?”
“How can I play for big pots, if I buckle under the pressure?”
“I knew what to do, and was given the best spot, and I blew it!”
“Why bother giving me premiums, when I have no idea what I’m doing”
“I’m an idiot”
“These guys are all here, because they know I’ll lose my stack to one of them soon enough”“I’m scared money” was what I concluded about myself. I have a bankroll. I have a stop-lost and an amount to stop at when I’m up. Yet, I can’t take the pressure of a big bet. Bet big enough, and it is likely I will fold or make mistakes.
I sat at the table for 2 more hours after that hand and was folding all my hands for the last hour. All of it. Even pocket kings. The table broke after three people left and I guess I wasn’t giving anymore action.
I couldn’t let this hand go. I had trouble sleeping. I kept thinking about it through-out the next day.
It was before dinner when I stop beating myself up. I resolved to study this game a lot more than I already have. I had been experimenting with poker concepts and looking for them during my sessions, and trying to understand certain plays. I played more than I had studied. I want to turn that around. I came up with a little curriculum for myself and committed study time on my calendar each week. There will be index cards involved when I’m studying off the felt =).
My girlfriend thinks I’m trying to hard, but I told myself that I need this.
I am clear about my goals. I want to move up in stakes playing $2 – 5 or $5 – 5 or $5 – 10. I want to be a winning player and make extra income. I want to be able to play with Brad and Andrew at their meetup games one day and play at their level.
I’m hoping I can use this forum as a vehicle to keep me accountable. Maybe I can post questions, concepts, and hand-analysis and see how I’m doing.
I still don’t know what to do about my “scared money” fear. Maybe I’ll play 4-8 limit holdem for a bit.
Please let me know what you guys think and any suggestions you have. Please be brutally honest and don’t sugar coat, I can take the criticism =)
Let’s break down the hand, then break down the psychology.
Pre-flop: Fairly standard, re-raise the maniac with a premium and call the all in-call. Your starting to get pretty shallow here even with the large stack sizes. With $240 in pre flop and you only have $470 behind your looking at a 2:1 SPR. The real key to this hand is establishing the range of the maniac to call an all in. I start putting him to medium to large pairs excluding AA and KK and suited broadway hands, (KQ, KJ, AQ, AK) I doubt he has things like KTs or QTs he may even have some unsited combinations and maybe some strange JTs or 9Ts. An optional line here is 4-bet jamming trying to get heads up, you can’t make an effective 4-bet without being nearly all in, something like $250 or $300 leaves you with such a small SPR.It may be the optimal line against a maniac since you know you will be facing a lot of aggression
Flop: A donk bet of $100 and a call, seems fine, you aren’t strong enough to raise for value and you have enough value that you don’t want to bluff. You have top-top with a straight redraw, sadly no flush draw. It is a scarry board to call down on, especially since all action now is side pot only action. With a maniac this may be a board that you may just need to hold your nose and call down. I think he has a lot more Qx and Kx and worse Ax hands that he can do this with (AQdd, KJ off etc.) than JT and KQ. Maybe he has AJ of the same suit as the T but that is the only 2 pair I see him having.
Turn: He makes a full side pot sized bet on a blank. You have ~$370 left if my math works so you either need to call with the intent of calling on another blank or fold. You are drawing to a chop against KQ, or to possibly 7 outs if he has AJs or JT or dead to JJ, TT. I’m not sure if I put him on JT suited but the rest are definitely in his range. You also have blockers to AJs, and ATs. You beat QQ, 99, AQs and o, QJs, KJs, even if he had KK. You are looking at $200 to win at least $300 and with V2s comment about $550. This board is still draw heavy and I don’t think you can fold with this small of a stack to pot ratio remaining. If you guys where about twice as deep then I think finding a fold here may be sensible some percentage of the time just because it is still a tough board to call down on with just top pair.
This is a tough hand. With how the stack sizes and bet sizes work out It seems you need to call down baring a king, I think on that board you should fold most 2 pair hands just because it is hard to be good on that connected of a board but even then I’m not sure.
Han, you did a good job identifying live reads, even without needing to do the hard math. If the hands you have posted recently are an indication you’ve been in a bit of a slump. Take some time off if you can, spend a couple of weeks, even a couple of months doing mostly study and play maybe once a week for a couple of hours. I don’t know if you are professional or have another job but try to take a breath.
Also, don’t play limit holdem just because you have some scared money unless you are sure you can beat the limit holdem games. If you have scarred money syndrom you need to get yourself to a place where the money is not the thing on your mind. I don’t have a poker bankroll but I have a job that I can rely on when I go play so my 2 buyins that I bring is money I can use or lose and not be worried. Take another look at your bankroll and win-lose stops to see if you feel the same. Another option is if you normally buy in for 150BB, come in for 100BB or 80BB maybe with 1 extra rebuy in your pocket. This keeps the loss of one buyin smaller. Or bring down the win stop to maybe 2.5 buyins if it was 3 or down to 2.75 buy ins if it was 3.5. With this you can celebrate a win a bit more frequently and reduce the pain of getting stuffed or coolered.
I’ve mentioned this before, but Bart Hanson and his YouTube channel is probably the single biggest help to improving my game. I’ve watched pretty much every video on his YouTube channel, especially the ones in his poker strategy play list. He’s got a subscribe website with some great content. The YT channel is free, so it’s worth it to check it out.
On to the hand, you tagged it. You were scared money here. You seem to read players tendencies pretty well, but then you tend to ignore that during your hands.
I think one of the hardest things for players to do is to learn and realize that sometimes the right play still loses money.
In this hand, you definitely exhibited that. Pre-flop, you can go either way on calling the shove or 5-betting. You have a top 5 hand, you’re pretty deep, you’re up against someone you think is a maniac, and you have a short-stack shove in the middle. I like a 5-bet here more, something like $250-300. You’ve got potential dead money in the middle with V1 and you’d rather be heads up.
That said, you call and you hit the flop pretty well. You’re just so strong here you can’t really ever fold. If you’re beat here, so be it, but you’re in a big pot and you’ve have a great hand, and even if you’re up against a set you’re not dead. Against a maniac. Sometimes you just gotta get it in. This was one of those times. You might be beat, but often you’re not.
The way you acted in this hand shows reserve and weakness. When you 3-bet then don’t 5-bet after V2’s jam shows some weakness (not a ton, because you 3-bet, but you really don’t want to take your premium hands multi-way), almost like you have a pocket pair. Then when you tank call the flop you are showing that you are scared of the ace. He played you. Of course he’s going to keep betting and representing better.
There’s a reason why a lot of the pros talk about being aggressive. You have to be aggressive in the right spots. When you’re passive, the aggressive players do what V1 just did and you fold the best hand.
A big thing is being comfortable losing what you have on the table. Maybe you play less so you can recover from the losses. Maybe you just take longer breaks after a big loss. You have to learn what works for you, because if you’re not willing to get your money in in certain situations (like this) it’s hard to be a long-term winning player.
Once you move up in stakes, you do have to make calls like this even if you lose. If you play so nitty you fold everything but the nuts you’ll never get paid off.
I wouldn’t really recommend playing 4/8 limit. Most of the players at that game are there to log hours and try and win jack pots. Sure, you’ll see a lot of hands, but you’ll end up getting frustrated by the constant limping of premium hands and people chasing hands because you always get the right pot odds. Limit just plays very different from no limit, and at that level I think it’s somewhat detrimental to your game.
Being able to know you’re going to lose sometimes to win long term is probably one of the hardest things for a poker player to grasp. You seem to be really improving at tagging players types and understand hand ranges.
Seriously, take a week or two off, and watch some of Bart’s videos. You’ll see a lot of players asking very similar questions that you are asking, and Bart’s advice is almost always spot on. Bart is a pro that plays at some pretty high stakes, and he knows what he’s doing.
Don’t beat yourself up too much Han. $200 is a lot of money to a lot of people, so being intimidated by a bet that large is understandable. The key is to get to a point where you can ignore the absolute amounts and focus instead on the amounts relative to the blinds and to the size of the pot. The only way to get there is experience. The more you play, the more you’ll just think about the specifics of the hand and the strategy you’re employing and less about the money involved.
In my experience, over-folding in a 1/3 game is generally not a bad thing. People way under-bluff at low stakes, so folding any one-pair hand to significant aggression is a good default choice in those games. (Note this changes dramatically at higher stakes with stronger players.) There’s an important exception to the suggested rule above, though, which is the rare occasion when you have a maniac at your table. Those players are not too hard to identify. When a maniac is going crazy splashing chips around, your strategy should be to tighten up your choice of starting hands, but to play those hands aggressively preflop in order to press your advantage with a strong hand. When you flop top pair or better (and especially when you flop top pair with AK, which is always top pair top kicker when it flops a pair), you’ll need to be willing to call off your stack with any reasonably low SPR (such as the ~2 SPR you had here). This can be an uncomfortable position to be in (and sometimes you’ll lose your stack), but in my opinion it’s the right strategy against this sort of player who clearly loves to shove his weight around and force players to make tough decisions for large bets.
Hope this helps. Hang in there. I commend your dedication to studying, and I’m sure you’ll see significant improvement in your game in the near future.
Cheers!
DaveDavid, John, and Dave. Thank you guys for your thoughtful comments. I’m soaking this up like a sponge.
I won’t play limit. You guys are right, I’ll just get frustrated by the players and go-off on Entitlement-Tilt.
I am going to take a few weeks off and just study. I’m going to go through all of Crush-Live videos, as John suggested. I’m going to be very aggressive with my study sessions and increase the quality of the study sessions as well. If I have to describe the quality, it would be like how Lawyers and Scientist study during their academic years. No distractions. No bullshit.
I even told my girlfriend, “You should go play still, I’ll be at home studying every minute you are playing.” I think she’s playing tonight, so it will mean 3 hours of study tonight. She still doesn’t think I need to study as hard as I want. She also thinks I’m kinda over-doing it when she saw how I setup my study area. I wish I can post a picture here!
The $1-3 I play is pretty big. Almost like a $2-5 game. I don’t like playing short, but I will muse over that idea for a bit. There are people who buy-in for the minimum at my table, $100. And they are exploited. Only new players or bad players pay them off. The rest of know when to get out of the way. I don’t want to buy in for short and be that exploitable.
A friend told me, that I think of the chips as money. I also get tied to my results too much. Once I buy chips, the relation to cash should be non-existent on the felt. Its hard to do, but he suggested that is a mentally I should have. “You bought chips to play. Cash doesn’t play unless you go to the Golden Nugget in Vegas.”
I like his point of view.
I want to thank you guys again for taking the time to help me along here. I’ll keep posting and progress as fast as I can.
My only advice is not to go overboard on the videos and study. Poker is all about putting together a lot of simple to complicated concepts together to make better decisions. It’s better to really understand a few than to vaguely understand a lot of them. That’s how players level themselves – they either apply too much of what they know against a player or level that doesn’t think that way, or they misapply stuff they’ve heard about and end up making bad decisions.
I’m actually going through something similar as I try and transition from 1/2 and 1/3 to 1/3/6 and 2/5. I tend to play some crazy nitty poker and I’m trying to get away from that. It’s still a bit intimidating to me to face a logical $390 bet in a 2/5 game. One thing I have found that helps is when I am the aggressor. Not sure if it’s the sense of empowerment that comes with placing a bet or what, but it helps.
I’d agree with Dave that over folding in 1/2 and the like isn’t the worst thing in the world. 1/2 players tend to play too many hands, play and get only strong hands, etc. You can bring out decent wins religiously in 1/2 by folding, value betting, and selective positional aggression.
When I get a maniac on my table, the first thing I do is request a seat change button so that I can get on his right. Yes, that’s right, I’m giving up position to him. I don’t care. Not sure how many others do this or would agree with it, but it’s what I do. The reasons are pretty simple. One, my range is going to be pretty narrow against a maniac, it’s that simple. I’m only playing the strong hands, and if he’s really playing that loose and aggressively, when I do hit it hard, I’m probably going with it. The position won’t matter much to me if that is the case. Secondly, I want to know who else is going to be in the hand. It’s way easier to play the single maniac rather than a hand with an additional unknown quantity. Sure, I may lose some two dollar limps due to him raising pre flop behind me, but that’s just not a big deal to me. The knowledge of who else is on the hand is much more important against there maniac So I can make a determination on playing KJo or A10 or hands like that
Thanks for the feedback Kenny. The 2-5 game plays so large, I know I’m not ready to handle the bet sizing yet. But, my 1/3 game has a max buy-in of 500, so I guess it plays like a 2/5 game sometimes when the pot gets large enough.
You do make a point about being the aggressor. John had brought up the same thing and the value of aggression. I have made some large bets when I’m the aggressor. I even made a large 3 barrel bluff as well. Looking back now, I’m not sure why I buckled to this guy, considering all the information he was giving off.
However, this hand is burned into me. I wasn’t playing poker here and I’m taken actions so that it doesn’t happen again. I will likely stumble, but I’m committed to becoming a winning player.
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