2x All-in bust-out with one rebuy in first 10mins!

[Jonathan Cooper]

I’m new here, and busted twice out of a live tournament, in the first 10 minutes. I’m not sure about both hands, I don’t think I could have got away from either, but I’d like to know your opinions..

The buy in for the tournament was $40, with a $5 bounty on each player.

25/50 blinds, 7000 starting stack

1st bust out hand:
MP1 raises to 150, I call with T8o in CO, BB calls
Flop comes: A79 rainbow
BB jams ~7000, MP calls, I call (with open ended nut straight and the right pot odds to call?)
Board runs out low card bricks, BB shows A9o, MP1 shows AJo

2nd bust out hand:
I look down at KcQc in the BB, 5 limpers, I make it 225
UTG raises to 1300, everyone folds, I call
Flop comes: Ks5c3c
I check, UTG jams ~7000
I call and he shows a flopped set 3x3s

I don’t think my calls in either situation are great, but I am pretty sure I am getting the right odds to call on the 1st hand. In the 2nd hard, is he really raising pocket 5s and 3s into so many players?? The bounties make players more loose? Pleeeease can someone give some advice?

[John S]

I think these types of tournaments make players play loose. The low buy-ins mean the blinds go up really quickly. So while you start with 140 BB, the blind levels probably go up every 10 or 15 minutes, so you quickly become short stacked and have to make plays. So that’s why you see players being loose and aggressive. The only way to cash in these tournaments is to get lucky and get a good sized chip stack and outlast the other players. The bounties are also a nice addition because you can make decent money by knocking out players. But these low buy in tourneys (really anything under $250, maybe even more) are just unbeatable in the long run due to the rake and blind structures.

The first hand, the only thing I think you did wrong was call pre-flop. Definitely loose call to a raise. But once you flop open ended, you have 8 outs to the nuts and two chances to hit it. You’re getting about the right price (a little better than 2:1) and you have about 31% equity. I don’t see a problem with the call there to try and triple up early in the tourney.

The second hand was fine. Sure can fold to the limp-reraise, but calling is fine too. Definitely a questionable reraise with 33, and I wouldn’t expect a lot of players to put in 20% of their stack preflop with that hand. Once you flop top pair and the flush draw you have to call. Only thing that has you in bad shape is a set, but even then you still have 2 chances to hit 9 outs. That flop is just a cooler.

Next time you’re there, watch how many people bust out and rebuy in the first half hour. It’s a lot. It’s kind of the way these tournaments play. The quick levels means you have to get lucky to have a chance at cashing, and a lot of people play pretty loose to try and get chips early. Just know that going in.

[Jonathan Cooper]

Thanks John, that’s cleared a lot up for me. His 4x 33 reraise was really weird with 33, looking to set mine. You’re right about those tourney structures, are higher buy in tourneys possible to beat long term? How to calculate the odds of tournament odds long term? Cheers

[Sam]

First hand: I’m with John S, i think the call preflop is too loose… I would end up folding the flop, and here’s why: I don’t study ICM implications, but I am pretty sure that they are too great to call here. John is right, you are about 2:1 with your draw, but if you are up against a set, your equity goes down a bit, and I think vs. 2 pair vs. top pair is the best outcome, in which John says you have 31% equity. This early in the tournament, at 140BBs, tripling up doesn’t have enough value to risk your tournament life, when you will bust out 2/3’s of the time (or more). If you are on a 30BB stack, it’s different, but this deep, there is no reason to risk your tournament life when you bust so often.

Second hand: first of all, that is an absolutely absurd limp 3-bet from UTG with 33. I would guess more often than not his range is JJ+ and AK. I think generally you’re gonna want to fold preflop to that range, but given that he has 33 there, who am I to say? On the flop, you played it fine. You flopped as good as you possibly can and are never folding in that spot. Even against AA, i believe you are a favorite and have to call. It’s just ludicrous he showed up with 33 there.

[John S]

That goes above my head. Bart Hansen did a really good video about this earlier this month.

It’s about 8 minutes but it’s worth a watch for your question. In short, he says that tournaments pretty much unbeatable long-term, and they’re pretty much there to have fun for a (relatively) low price (in that you can play for hours on one low buy-in).

Bigger tournaments may be [i]more[/i] beatable (by bigger I mean the tourneys that are a $350 or so buy in), but not beatable for a lot of players. Most casinos have a monthly Saturday tourney in this price range. They generally pay about 10% of the field from my experience, and those first few payouts usually only pay 25-50% more than the buy-in. So that’s something to think about.

Look at the payout structure for some of these tournaments and think about how well you would have to do consistently to come out ahead. Sure, you can win big tourney and cash for $100k plus, but that’s really rare. But that is the allure of the tournament – turning a few hundred into $100k.

There are some pros that are tournament specialists (Jeff Boski has a YT channel and he plays mostly tourneys). I would look up some of those guys and read/watch their stuff.

In the end you have to decide what you want out of poker. I use my winnings to buy fun toys for myself (recently bought of rappelling gear and a drone with my last few months of winnings), so I’m not interested in having a bankroll just for poker. If I lose, I lose, but if I win I buy things I’ve had my eye on. So you have to decide first if you’re in it for fun, to supplement your income, or something in between, and decide what game is best for you based on that.

[Jonathan Cooper]

Thanks very much for the advice and video, it is truly appreciated. I’ll be back to this site!

Thanks John.

[Richard D]

I guess I’m confused here.
You say …

“25/50 blinds, 7000 starting stack.
1st bust out hand:
MP1 raises to 150, I call with T8o in CO, BB calls
Flop comes: A79 rainbow
BB jams ~7000, MP calls, I call (with open ended nut straight and the right pot odds to call?)”

So after the flop there should be 475 in the pot. BB jams 7000 so now there is 7475 in the pot and it is 7000 for you to call. So you are getting barely over 1:1 on a call, which means, I think, you should be around 50% or better to make your hand if you want to make a call profitable. Doesn’t look to me like you are close to that with an open-ender.

What have I missed?

[Jonathan Cooper]

MP calls behind the BB jam, so he puts another ~7000 in to the pot

[Steven Young]

Everyone pretty much nailed it as far as choices in play.
Those tourneys are hard to beat and you just have to get lucky and have fun.

[Author]

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