- This topic has 7 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 4 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Last night I was playing 1/2NL at Harrah’s Cherokee and got into a situation that really bothered me. It’s not because I lost the hand, these things happen, but it was the action of one of the players involved. The best way I can describe it was angle shooting (if you’re not sure what I mean see the following vid Daniel Negreanu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBuzJ4-yXU).
I’m in the big blind and pick AK off suit. 6 handed at this point and it calls around for the big blind, I check my option when it comes back around with the thought process that a small raise would likely get called around and a big raise would get a fold all the way around. The flop comes 5K5. Small blind checks, I bet $15. UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $30 (I’m thinking he hit the K as well and get ready to call). Action continues, another fold then the button raises to all in for $120 or so. Small blind folds. I ask for a count and start thinking what to do at this point. I come to the quick conclusion that he has a 5…everybody limped preflop, the guy being short stacked he had no reason to bluff all in behind two big bets. If there were not another player at in the hand then it would have been a quick call, but since UTG+1 raised my bet I have to consider what other action may come if I call, I look back to UTG+1 and notice he has me out chipped by around $400.
Now we get to the part that really pissed me off. When I looked over at UTG+1, he has his cards in his hands, held slightly above the table and grasped between two fingers in a manner that says he is prepared to fold. I had been at the table with this guy for going on three hours at this point and observation was that he would peek at his cards preflop, if he intended to play he would set his cards down and not so much as peek at them again. If he intended to fold, he would hold them in the same manner that he was at this point until it was his action and able to throw them in. And noting what he presented as intent to fold, I decided to call the button all in. Even though I knew he had flopped a set, with top pair top kicker, I was plenty willing to pay $120 to chase another king. Before anybody asks, yes, I would have folded if I thought UTG+1 was planning to call.
So after my chips are pushed in I look over and expect UTG+1 to throw his cards into the muck, but to my surprise he sets them down and calls the all in as well. Granted, I wasn’t particularly worried about this because as I said before I was pretty certain he had also hit the king, possibly pocket queens, but I had an A to go with my K so I’m still thinking I’m good. However, I was immediately bothered thinking this guy had essentially done some angle shooting to get me to call.
To end up the hand, the turn was a blank so I check and he checks it back. River is an ace so I bump up to a higher two pair, I check it and he bets $125. I think about raising for a minute, but ultimately throw in a call. Villain turns over Q5 to take the side pot. Button turns over 10 5 to chop the main pot.
Again, it really wasn’t losing the hand that bothered me. Things happen, and plus what I lost in this hand was all profit and I hadn’t lost anything from my buy in. But it really bothers me that he presented himself as being ready to fold in order to get a call out of me. There’s no room for angle shooting at the poker table. Either play with integrity or don’t play at all.
A raise preflop would have been a much better option. Without raise your opp range us everywhere. Raising will thin the field considerably.
Consider if you raise this hand and only get one caller. It is much more unlikely that your opp has a 5 in that situation.Never assume an opp is going to do something. Unless their cards are in the muck then they still have cards no matter how they are acting. Was it kind of shitty of him? Yes.
The way played then i would have most likely folded to the first all in. You have raised and have one caller already. And now all in. There are a lot of 5s in a limped pot like that. Especially with one more player to act.
I agree with Steven in that you absolutely should be raising that up pre-flop. I’d rather win the limp cash and move on the the next hand, than to not be able to put the other player(s) in any sort of range.
As for the perceived angle-shoot; I’m not sure I agree with your interpretation of what an angle is. He had a visible tell, that HE was likely very aware of. While you can generally rely on that sort of information, and take advantage of it… I don’t interpret that as an angle. Sneaky? Absolutely… but that’s poker.
As Steven noted… lots of 5’s out there for sure.
For that hand itself, you definitely should have raised there. If you’re not raising with AK, do you only raise Aces and Kings? You don’t want to take a hand like that out of position 6 ways. Even pocket Aces has under 50% equity against 4 or 5 players.
Once you get raised and reraised on the flop, you have to let it go. There almost a 100% chance one of them has a 5, especially at this level, and you have about a 12% chance to catch a king. No way you are getting 7 to 1.
As far as this being angle shooting, I don’t really see it that way. It’s a reverse tell. This is angle shooting. I’ve been at tables where the guy to my left would count out his raise before it got to him, so I would call with my strong hands to 3-bet him. It usually worked once or twice before they catch wind of it and stop or count out a raise then call. If you can use tells against a player, why can’t they use them against you?
I wasn’t looking for anyone to tell me I played the hand wrong. It’s obvious by the amount that I lost, which I clarified that I lost a few times in the original post, that I played it wrong. My post was about the actions of one of the other players involved.
Yeah, I don’t think that was an angle shot. More of a reversed tell.
In my opinion, it’s similar as if he’d left out a sigh and rolled his eyes when the flop came ; we can expect him to fold so we bet, but then he tanks a little and raises. Reversed tell.I might have fallen into his trap too tho… but actually, I’d just have folded in the first place, (no matter if UTG+1 folds or not)
Yeah, I guess probably reverse tell is probably a better way to describe it. I get angle shooting and know that wasn’t really the definition of it, but that was the closest thing I could think to label it.
I am with the pack – reverse tell. Angle shooting has a negative connotation that I don’t think this act is necessarily deserving of given the way you describe it. If the action was on him, and he was acting like he was going to muck to see what you were going to do behind and THEN call, I could see that being an angle – but he was just portraying weakness to influence your decision. At the end of the day, we all act certain ways to try to influence players around the table. Throwing chips vs. placing them, round numbers vs. seemingly strange bet-sizing, facial reaction, chip tricks, speed of action… I think holding his cards above the table in a ‘fold’ fashion was misleading (and probably intentional to influence your decision) but I hesitate to call it angle-shooting.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.