Flopping sets with less than 100bb effective. (2 hands)

[Yazzie]

2/5 NL $800 max @ MotorCity Casino

Hand #1:

> UTG limps ($700+)
> UTG+1 limps (covers)
> MP1 limps ($300~)
> We’re in HJ with KdKc we raise to $40 off a $440 stack. (standard open is $15-$20)
> BB defends (main villain $2K+)
> UTG and UTG+1 call. 4 way to the flop.
Pot is $175 flop is: Ks 9s 7d
> Checks to me, I bet $85
> BB calls
Turn: 5s
> BB checks, we go all in, BB calls.
River: 4d
we loose to As8s.

Hand #2:

2/5NL $500 max @ MGM Detroit

> 4 limpers
> we’re in CO with 7s7c, we raise to $50 off a $750 stack
> BTN flats, BB completes ($1000~), MP calls (main villain $400)
Pot is $220. Flop: Jd 9h 7d
> BB donks $25
> UTG raises to $125
> we go all in.
> UTG calls off
We show our hand and get shown 10d 8d and we do not improve.

What do you think about these hands?

In hand #1: I just moved to the table from a PLO table, played one orbit, did not know the main villain, but he played 5/9 hands I’ve seen.

In hand 2#: I do not think that I’d open 77 after a few limpers all the time as I’d prefer to set mine as cheaply as possible. On this table however, there was a lot of limp/fold and the BB was a big defender definitely on the fishy side. I think I’m raise/folding a lot in this spot. I also was quiet for a couple of orbits, so I thought my open would be considered strong. I wasn’t planning on c-betting without a set after getting called in 3 spots, especially with a solid reg on the btn.

I think that going all in with a set when we’re playing for less than 100bb effective is a good play long term. Do you agree? Is it wrong to have a fixed rule about it?

• This topic was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Yazzie.
• This topic was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Yazzie.
• This topic was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Yazzie.
• This topic was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Yazzie.

[John S]

I think in most cases, you’re right. Stacking off that shallow with a set won’t often be a bad play. But I think there are some cases in which it might not be the best play. I wouldn’t necessarily have a fixed rule because there are some scenarios when I think the fold is the right play.

Hand 1: Not too much wrong here. Villain is calling pre-flop pretty loose to call with A8s for a bet of $40, especially considering how short you are. He’s definitely a guy you want at the table because he’s going to chase a lot and you can exploit that. After the flop I don’t see how all the money doesn’t get in. Nothing you can do there – you played it right, he got lucky.

Hand 2: This hand is a little tougher. I like the big raise pre-flop, but if people are calling that loose I’m not sure how big you have to bet.

Flopping bottom set makes this tricky, because there are more hands that beat you. With top set, I think you always have to call here, but bottom set there are more combos of hands that beat you and likely less outs if you are behind (one bettor likely has top pair here). With the donk lead and the raise, I think we have to at least consider a fold. Sure there are a ton of draws here, but that’s some pretty strong action. I’m not sure if I could fold here, but there is a case to be made that it’s right. Just because it’s a set doesn’t mean you in the lead.

[Yazzie]

Thanks for your thoughtful feedback John.
When I say “a fixed rule” I mean to say a standard play which I deviate from at times.

In hand 1 villain is most likely on a flush draw (the most obvious draw there). He’s not bad, but he loves playing, one of those ones. So he’s OOP, I’m blocking top pair heavily, and he would not be able to call with most of his range there. It was kinda obvious that he hit the flush on the turn, but there’s just too much in the pot and I have to go with it.

Hand2: I actually went all in on the flop man 😂. Guy who raised had only $225 behind after his raise. The donk bet changed the action significantly, I agree. So, I made my decision on the flop. I decided that the raiser (Utg) doesnt have enough 10 8, JJ, or TT in his range. I can’t see Utg limp calling with any of these hands because it’s a bad play. Utg also didnt have enough money behind. I put him on a pair+ draw or a double draw. I actually was worried about the fish in BB more.

I agree with you that his action was very strong (raising the flop with the original raiser still behind him). I just couldn’t get away from it.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Yazzie.

[Guy Armsden]

hey Yazzie! I am going to be coming to play in Detroit in October and would love to meet up if you are playing that month.

My take on the hands would be as follows and would always love your feedback too.

HAND 1: I like your pre-flop raise sizing as we don’t want to scare them off and we have position for later streets. On the turn after he checks to you and the third spade arrives, I think this has to be a check back. It was a dry flop and to call your continuation bet would put him on a flush more than two pair. if he has a smaller set than we won’t be in bad shape either.
As well, if he does have the flush this will give you the opportunity to try and catch a card on the end to fill up.

The big question will be what to do when/if he leads out on the river. With his hand we can assume that he will probably lead out and we are short stacked. I would be inclined to fold and top up because of his call on such a dry flop but we are close to the top of our range and can’t fault you for calling down. This would be more a judgment on the player and information you have but as you said you just switched tables so its a tough spot.

Let me know!

HAND 2: Tough spot!

I like the raise pre flop as you have a wide range in the CO and this will be a better play in the long run to not allow players to catch on to what hands you are and are not raising. With that being said, we get a juicy flop of j-9-7 for lower set. When BB donks out, this will most likely be a weak hand trying to take a stab at the pot with such a connected board. Once the UTG raises, the players still has MP and yourself the initial raiser to deal with and worry about getting shoved over the top. The board is very connected and with such action before hand I would be inclined to fold. The board is so connected that his range of hands is vast with flush draws, over pairs (if played tricky), straight draws like you said earlier. Its again a tough fold but with the action in front i would fold and know that you are the better player at the table and will pick up hands to make money later in the session

Let me know!

[Yazzie]

Hey Guy!

For sure man, hit me up when you’re in Detroit.

My intention when posting these hands was to discuss whether stacking off with a set when playing for <100bb effective is a good play long term or not. I play a bit of PLO and don’t have “emotional” blockers that prevent me from folding sets. We’ve all done it; sets on one to a straight or one to a flush boards, no problems.
So it’s not about how I got sucked out on with top set or how I punted my stack with bottom set. It’s really about the “fixed rule” that I operate by.
In hand1 there’s only on draw on the flop, the draw got there on the turn. We’re blocking top pair heavily. If I agree with your analysis, I think checking back the turn is a the way to go. However, to answer your question, with so few BBs behind, I’m calling any river bet.

Hand2 again, it’s the fact that the raise came from the shorty. It’s very hard for us to be beat against a UTG limp/call range. Not always, but in general. I think had I not opened pre and limped, I’d still 3-bet the flop and maybe fold to a 4-bet jam because they always have T8 there. If the UTG had me covered or had $500+ behind I’d have called and he would have most likely slowed down on the turn because the flush got there and maybe got to a cheap showdown with my bottom set. But, it’s hard to fold sets to a shorty on draw-heavy boards.

Thanks for your feedback Guy.

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