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This may end with a question that does not have an answer. And first, let me say that during April I was able to get in more sessions than normal for me over one month, and with everything crunched into a stat tracker, I’m happy with my results over all sessions. I was able to get in 9 sessions coming out to 29.5 hours of play and a profit of $1,826 (that number reflects $800 of losing sessions). This was just playing 1/2NL. Not too long ago I decided to stop asking the “what if” when it came to joining a training site and jumped into Red Chip Poker and have been working my way through the Core, I feel as though my game has become more solid. Far more confidence with my betting and my hand reading ability is coming alone pretty well. The studying certainly seems to be paying off.
In the last month though, I had 3 losing sessions tracked and they all had a common factor: a fish, or at least a player that should be a fish. A guy that, as Hellmuth once described, can’t even spell poker. However, the fish keeps hitting. Situations happening like picking up KK on the button and preflop raising to $20 with a $7 pot, and the fish calls from middle position. The flop comes out T64r and the fish calls your bets to the river, then flips over T4o at showdown taking the pot. Similar situations keep happening, and the fish keeps hitting. Needless to say it’s tilting as hell and very frustrating.
I’ve heard many dealers at this point make the statement that you rarely get those kinda people sitting at a 2/5 table, and a handful of players I’ve spoken to agree that the ATC player is rare at 2/5. I’m not looking for anybody to tell me that it doesn’t happen ever because I know that’s not the case, but in your experience, is a 2/5 table generally a game with higher quality players that veer away from playing ATC? Not having a set bankroll for poker and just going to play whenever I have a few hundred to buyin with has kept me to 1/2 almost exclusively, but I have held my own in 2/5 before. My current job has pretty much unlimited overtime right now so I could certainly have a bankroll put together in the next few months that would let me become a 2/5 grinder. The question that may not have an answer, or at least not an answer anybody else can give me…is it time to move up?
Congratulations on your recent success. THe only person who can answer when it is time to move up is you. I understand you frustrations with losing to people who call with any two preflop but I don’t really mind losing to those players. More often than not playing in a disciplined manner will allow us to win in the long run but poker isn’t a game where you can win every session. Especially when each session is an average of 3 hours, as yours were, it is almost impossible to guarantee positive sessions each day.
Losses are normal and things may not get better in 2/5. While you get fewer people calling with any 2 generally the average player is much better especially when it comes to applying pressure. Most 1/2 and 1/3 games are very passive, 2/5 is less so. And the swings will be bigger, $800 is easily losable in one session, being the equivalent of losing about $300 in 1/2.
A few random thoughts:
Your rough success rate in April is about $60 per hour. That strikes me as insanely good (coming from a guy whose long term rate is in the $10 to $20 per hour range). Why change what appears to be working so well?
Fish are good for the game. Yes, frustrating when they are catching cards. But I think there is a strong long term argument for seeking these players out, not trying to avoid them. I want people calling my raises with garbage from out of position.
If hand reading were your strongest skill, I could see a better argument for playing against non-ATC players. ATC players require a different approach and that approach does not include much hand reading. It does generally include lots of value betting and raising, especially in position.
It sounds like your bankroll can afford it, so I see now harm in experimenting in moving up. But do consider it an experiment and know what you are looking for. Are you hoping for a higher hourly rate ultimately? How will you judge this experiment to know if it is a success or failure? Will it be a success to you if you have a lower hourly rate with less variance and frustration? What if you find the win rate 10% better but with much bigger swings because the stakes are so much higher?
Thanks for the feedback.
David, it hadn’t occurred to me that 2/5 is a less passive game than 1/2. I will definitely keep that in mind.
allin67, good points there. Honestly can’t say that I know exactly what I’m looking for and how I would decide if it’s successful or not. My initial thought is that I would be less frustrated in a game with less chance to run into ATC players, but on the other hand I’ve never been stacked in a 2/5 game so I’m not really sure how that would go over for me either.
I’m gonna keep thinking it over for a while though. It may come down to a split second decision at the moment I walk into a poker room again. Walking in with several buy ins for a 1/2 has always been more comfortable to me than walking in with one buy in for 2/5, which is another reason I’ve stuck to 1/2 mainly. Where I play the 2/5 has a buyin of $200-$1,000 max or table stakes, which why you would sit down at 2/5 with $200 is beyond me. In any case, if I do hit the 2/5 streets I’ll update with how it’s going.
A thought I had : let’s say you play twice a week, 8 times a month… Nothing restrain you from playin once every 2 week a 2/5 session and 1/2 the rest of the time. You could try out moving up gradually like that. If it goes well, then you could start to play 2/5 every couple session and so on, untill you feel comfortable playing only 2/5
gl!
been playing for a while and having no bankroll always kept me from taking a shot at 2/5, but I can’t wait to do so š So reading your story gets me pumped up and motivated š
Give it a shot. You don’t have to buy-in for the max if you’re not comfortable doing so. But, it does give you a chance to see how the game plays, get used to the size of the game and the pace, and gives you a chance to get a feel for the players at the game.
As someone who recently made the move from 1/2 to 2/3 to 3/5 over the past few years, here are some of my thoughts:
“Any two card” players are pretty rare. Occasionally you get the maniac fish/whale, but they are obvious to spot.
Skill level definitely goes up. Depending on where you play, you will find pro and semi-pro players at this level. Generally, they are pretty easy to spot: backpacks, everyone knows their name, generally covers the entire table. They will spot you as new to the game, and they might target you if you are that out of your league there. A few targeted me my first few games, but I held my own and now they generally respect my play. Might not happen (especially if there are other fish at the table), but be prepared. Don’t be afraid to moves seat and get the best players to your right.
The game is definitely more aggressive. There still is a decent amount of limping, but a lot more 3! and 4! pots. You have to be aware of position, be aware of what raises from different positions mean, and be aware of who is 3! a lot and who is not when you raise.
That said, there are still plenty of fish at this level. Still some OMC. Still lots of people with lots of money and little skills. Plenty of money to be made here.
I have noticed that I do better at larger games, and I think that’s for two reasons:
1. I tighten up my pre-flop range, which is like half of the battle for good play. I would tend to get bored and splashy during long 1/2 sessions, and my play would drop. Doesn’t happen at higher levels with more money on the line.
2. I pay attention more. It’s easy to ignore action at the limpfest that is often 1/2. I pay attention more at higher games because it’s more interesting and I learn more from watching the good players play.If you make the move, good luck!
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