Is this an angle?

[Kevin]

A hand I witnessed (not involved myself) last night in a 1/2 game in Detroit. Relevant info, button is a super aggro, super talkative, reg with approx $750. Small blind shortstack $18. 2 other early position players not sure of stack sizes but not really important. Middle position player $1200+. Button straddle on for $5.

Short stack SB open shoves for $18, gets 4 callers. As button calls he announces “sorry in advance.”
Flop 8,3,2 rainbow. 2 checks, MP player with $1200 bets $75, B ($750ish) calls other 2 players fold.

Main pot $90, side pot $150

Turn 3, completes rainbow. MP bets $125, B calls

Main pot $90, side pot $400

River Q, MP checks, B snap shoves for $500+. MP tanks, asking questions about “why so much?” (even though the bet/pot size was fairly appropriate I think?). Button responds quickly to every question with a response, “because there’s a lot in there…”

Here’s where it gets interesting… MP counts out enough for a call and sets it to the side, takes a look at his cards stands up and says “well, this is all profit anyway.”

Button announces IMMEDIATELY without missing a beat “Great! Queens full!!!” looks at the dealer and says “That’s a call right?!?!”

Middle position hasn’t moved chips anywhere near the line let alone across it is still standing and is every bit as confused as the rest of us because we all know he’s done nothing to indicate a call.

Dealer says “no call.”

MP: “Sorry man, I wasn’t trying to angle you I was really planning on calling but now you’re either angling me or you cost yourself money.”

Button: While holding his hand over the line in a manner indicating he’s ready to showdown quickly “Whatever man, forward movement (which there was none) is a call to me but you’re going to see my hand anyway (because SB was all-in) so do what you want!”

MP: Tanks for a while longer says something to the effect of “Now I really think you’re angle shooting me.” Eventually mucks it.

Button rolls over 2,4 off suit and wins the side pot with a sheepish grin like he knew he just got away with something. (SB incidentally won the main with A,Q)

Hopefully my telling of the story is clear but in my mind, the person to my right’s mind and the MP players mind what the Button did was morally questionable to say the least. MP revealed to me and the player next to me that he mucked A,8 which would have won a $1400 side pot had he called.

Thoughts?

[fireston]

Strength means weakness, weakness means strength. I think they were both trying to gather information and make the other fold. The button as you said is a reg, and looks like he knew how to play the situation to profit from it. Ask yourself what is the purpose of MP counting out the chips then standing up and saying “its all profit anyway”. He is trying to get a response to make the guy throw his hand away because he wasn’t sure the strength of his own hand. If anything I think both players were pushing the line of ethical/appropriate table behaviour, I just think the button was better at playing that game than the MP.

On another note, button told the table before it went to the flop he had a very weak hand. Sorry in advance:)

My two cents.

[Kevin]

Hi Fireston,

Thanks for the reply. Excellent point about the buttons hand strength preflop. In real time even though I was trying to make sense of the whole situation at the table just like everyone else, I remember thinking to myself “there’s no way this guy has pocket Queens here.”

Also, while I don’t disagree about the MP players attempt to gather info by standing and announcing “this is all profit anyway” it couldn’t have been done in an effort to get the button to lay down his hand as he was the player who had shoved all-in. I guess we can discuss levels of ethics but the without any way of actually knowing, my gut tells me the MP player was genuinely about to call and was also genuinely caught off guard and shocked when the button prematurely (and falsely, obvious I know and also obviously intentional) announced his hand knowing full well the MP player hadn’t called yet. He certainly got the better of the MP player here, no disputing that. Based on the timing of the announcement “great! queens full!” milliseconds after the MP player stood and said “it’s all profit anyway” he had to have had that comment “locked and loaded” for precisely this situation. Just not sure it’s something I’d ever feel comfortable doing.

[fireston]

Hey Kevin

I am always “uneasy” when players start acting out of the norm. When someone in a hand stands up, or starts talking or acting out, I feel it violates the “spirit of the game” but not the actual game itself. As soon as someone is physically acting in an aggressive manner, I think their hand is weak because they are trying to prevent a bet or call. I think you are totally right and normal to be like “what the hell is going on here/ what did I just witness”

Good job knowing there was no way he had pocket Queens, pre-flop there should have been a reraise, and a reraise if there was a bet into him on the flop and he was trying to be sneaky by just calling pre-flop.

I do think MP misplayed his hand from the get-go. Ace-8 isn’t a great hand to play in a multi player pot because of the odds of being outkicked or behind to a pair going to the Flop are pretty good. I think either a reraise to 60 or a fold would have been better. If he does that, I think outside the small blind, he gets at least two to fold, and if not all three and he loses just 18. If he raises and the button calls, with a c bet on the flop, the button has to put MP on a stronger hand, and there is no way he shoves. I think Button put him on an 8 and figured he could get him off the 8 with a large bet as soon as a higher card came on the turn or river.

Not saying I’m always right in hand reading but the with a $5 straddle and all in $13 more reraise this really is like limping into the pot for anyone that is calling and with 3 callers in front of me, I’m thinking Ace weak, K-2, Q-J-8, suited connects, and if someone reraises me on a flop a small pocket pair that hit their set or two pair but since i’m the jackball playing 2-4 very doubtful two pair.

8-3-2 on the flop being on the button, seeing just calling preflop with 2 bets flop and turn, yeah pretty sure he has 8 something, so I just need to hit a 2, 4 or higher card than an 8 to get him off the hand.

[Frank]

I didn’t perceive any angle shooting from your explanation of the events. Cutting out chips for a call, then thinking about that call surely isn’t an angle, no matter how the player acts (i.e. standing up, talking, etc). And the button calling his hand, and lying about it, well that’s just poker. I’ve had it happen to me before too. I was all in on the turn with an OP and the river was the third flush card. My OP says, “flush”, so I folded my straight only to see her turn over four to the flush. I wasn’t happy, but honestly it was my mistake for not turning my cards over before they ended up in the muck. Never did that again! Was that an angle shoot by my OP? At the time, and from my perspective it was, but in hindsight, I made the mistake of not turning my cards over when I had my entire stack in the middle.

[Author]

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