Let's get the ball rolling!

[Charles M]

So here’s an interesting hand I played at the Rio a couple weeks back. Playing 5/5/10 PLO where the 10 straddle is UTG instead of on the button. Early position opens to 30. There’s two callers and I’m in the SB with K♠️J♠️T♥️2♥️. I contemplate potting to isolate and make it way more likely that if I make a hand it’ll be best. This concept is known as pushing as opposed to pulling. Since my flush draws are non nutted I don’t really want to go 5 way to a flop where if I make a flush I may likely be behind. By potting I would hopefully push some hands out that could overflush me. The problem is the game is super loose and I doubt it’ll actually isolate preflop and instead bloat the pot multiway. I could just fold preflop as this hand doesn’t play that well OOP but the game is super good and I want to get in pots with these specific players. Not to mention I don’t think I’ll get myself in trouble postflop.

The flop comes A♠️5♣️3♠️ and it checks to the raiser who checks it back. The turn is 4♠️. An action player in the Sb leads for 50 into 150. I make a small raise to 125 and the preflop raiser flats. The action player who lead the turn now folds. The river is 7♥️. Now this is a spot where in my usual game I mix in a variety of options depending on opponents. If it’s a station I’ll lead big in hopes of him thinking I have the nut blocker. Against good opponents I’ll mix in the big bet as well as a check call because I want to let them bluff off and it’s unlikely I’ll get called by worse since they know I’m generally a tight player. I don’t think check raising has any real merit as all I expect to get called by is the straight flush. Given that the straight flush is 5♠️2♠️ I think to myself how can he ever have it here since he’s the preflop opener and it’s way more likely he has some middling flush. I value bet 225 into 530ish. It’s not long before he jams for 650 more.

Now here are the points I think are interesting about the hand. First is the preflop play. This isn’t a hand I love playing even though it’s double suited. It’s gapped and makes non nut flushes. Also playing OOP in PLO is the worst. That being said you don’t always get every opportunity to get into pots with big fish. The question is how big of a mistake if at all is calling here? Similarly is it better to just pot preflop to hopefully thin the field?

Next is the turn, should we be raising the turn? I personally did it because I wanted to start creating a pot. Given his small bet it felt like he had a small flush and once called would be checking river. Since he was a spewy station I thought it best to raise.

Moving on to the river. What’s the best play here? Given that we are facing heads up vs the preflop raiser it feels he can have a combination of QQxx that has made a queen high flush or some run down that had made a Queen high/Ten high flush. Targeting these hands a half pot sized bet seems best against what I believed was a competent opponent. Now that he jams, can we find a fold? I don’t have much information on my opponent other than he’s young and appears relaxed.

I’ll share my river thought process once there’s some discussion. Thanks!

• This topic was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Charles M.

[Michael]

If I hit the straight flush on the turn, and my opponent raised, I would re-raise right then, probably not pot over, but like a min plus a little raise. So not only can you discount SF based on range reading, but also betting pattern doesn’t make much sense to just flat a raise where you could easily squeeze more value, especially with a card coming. If the board pairs on the river, there went the SF chance to get any more action unless you happen to have the high flush plus boat draw.

Pre-flop I think you got to see a flop for (relatively) cheap in a 5-5-10 game and while that starter has some trouble, it has merit too, as it turns out the 2nd nut hand which is what you expect with a suited King anyway — only in this case its much tougher range wise for V to have 52s as their danglers versus Ax if the A was not on the board.

You mention there is not much value in check raises — but there is very little to lose also. There is only one single card combination which beats you. This is not like a case where the board pairs and now you have to be concerned about all sorts of possible combinations of sets or two pair that turned into boats or quads, in which case there are about a dozen combos that can beat you in those cases. What will he call with? If he’s a pretty good player, nothing. But you are hoping for a mistake, right? The kind of mistake that would have someone playing 52s as their dangler in a raised pot. Which by the way, what is that combo? AA52? He doesn’t have the Ace of spades, so he doesn’t even have a suited Ace. That’s some rough aces there unless this is PLO8. So technically possible, but if you are even thinking of folding, then this is clearly a good spot to bluff with AAxx and Qxxx with two spades. Maybe even a sophisticated player jamming with the straight flush blocker like xxx5 spades.

I have seen a high flush call down on a SF board enough to know the high flush almost always pays off, so a blocker play would be pretty risky.

So what beats you? 1 main combo – AxAx5s2s. What calls (shoves) worse? 1 main combo – AxAxQsTs What blocker bluff might be attempted with the shove? AxAxXx2s / AxAxXx5s

My gut feeling is a call is fine. The relaxed disposition could come from Qx spades and him reading you as not having Kx spades (how do you appear?) I don’t consider Qx spades a bluff, but I guess it depends on your exact definition of bluff.

GL

[Kevin Rex]

I’m going to agree with Michael on this one. If you’re going to be folding the nut flush on an unpaired board to a raise when there is only one combo to make a straight flush you’re simply folding too often. You can probably be value betting the queen high flush on the river here as well. Fold your queen high flushes and call with your king flushes.

Also, if the player is not particularly good he may be overvaluing the 2nd nut flush and just donating to your value hands.

Basically if you’re folding the nut flush here then your opponents can CRUSH you with bluffs. If he has it he has it.

[Charles M]

Awesome discussion guys!

I agree with most everything that’s been said. I’m not sure you (Michael) understood the action on the turn if you’re expecting preflop raiser to cold three bet a straight flush. I agree that by raising he maximizes the chances that he stacks a king high flush since board pairing rivers can ruin this…however if he does raise then he almost surely shuts out the action player who lead the turn in the first place. Since preflop raiser has final action in this hand I would flat in his spot with the straight flush in hopes of allowing the player in between to get out of line. In fact you can even hope the river pairs the board which could give the third player in the pot a full house.

Now on to my decision on the river. I often find myself in these river spots not getting maximum value when I have a super strong hand that isn’t the nuts. It’s surely a mistake of mine but I often see monsters under the bed. In this spot I felt rather comfortable bet and calling off a raise because much like has been said wtf combo of 5♠️2♠️ can he have. Problem is you just don’t see people jam rivers as bluffs that often, especially when you yourself hold the key card (in this case the K♠️). You can say the 5♠️ and 2♠️ are the key cards since they’re the straight flush blockers but attempting to use them as the nut blockers is suicide IMO in this spot.

When he jammed I started talking out loud saying how can he have the straight flush. My thought was well it can really only be AA52 and I would expect him to bet the flop with that hand since he would have top set, a flush draw and a gutter. Still I just felt I was beat. He looked way too comfortable knowing I had the King high flush. In the end despite feeling like I was beat I couldn’t find the fold. He ended up having Q♥️Q♦️5♠️2♠️.

Obviously a terrible open on his part in a full ring 5/5/10PLO game from UTG+2

I guess we can say it’s a “cooler” but I think a lot can be gained from this regarding live PLO. Given that I believed he was competent I think we can remove him jamming worse flushes for value. If that’s the case the question is what is he bluffing with? You can say we can’t be folding the second nuts here or we are way too exploitable…but how often do you find that happening in live cash games?

I think one of the biggest arguments for not folding is my bet size. It signals weakness which he can be attempting to take advantage of. If he believes I’d bet larger with my nut hands it’s an easy jam for him with the queen high flush for value and bluffs to have me fold. This was ultimately the reason I believed I couldn’t fold. Now had I bet 4/5 pot can an argument be made for folding to a $400 raise getting 4 to 1?

I’ve just always been a big proponent of never thinking a huge hand is too big to fold. There are always reasons and spots to find a fold for even the second biggest of hands 😆

Anyway just a fun (or rather miserable) hand I wanted to share and get some insight on. Thanks!

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