Master or Donkey?

[David Wibel]

I have a hand that I can’t figure out if I played it perfectly or like a donkey.

2-3, $300 max bet, about $800 deep effective. Hero on the Button. Hand is TT no clubs

There are two villains in this hand. One is a bit tilted the other is semi competent. Villain 1 is in the Hi-Jack with $200 effective (he is semi-tilted after I stacked him a few orbits earlier), villain 2 is in the SB with ~$800 and is semi-competent. I consider myself semi competent (though still likely a losing) player. I underbluff (I figure I get less respect being a mid 20s guy in a sweatshirt) and don’t value bet thin enough and call too frequently post flop with medium draws and fold too frequently on the river against certain opponents.

Action folds around to Villain 1 who limps. The table is a bit limp happy and I’m happy to raise my good hands and play post flop. I raise to $15 and Villain 2 re-raises to $50. He doesn’t 3 bet much so I put him on JJ+ and AK, maybe AQs but mainly just premium holdings. Villain 1 calls and I decide to set mine. I now expect to have villain 1 beat all the time but I could be on two outs against villain 2.

Flop QhTc9c: So pretty good for me. Villain 2 bets $100 and Villain 1 jams his remaining stack, about $130. I call and this is my first spot. I’m a little unsure if I can re-raise here or if I can only call or fold due to the raise not being 50% more than the initial bet. I didn’t want to ask or raise and get told I can’t as that gives away information. I haven’t been playing for that long so I don’t know all the nuances. So I really don’t know what the correct action is other than not folding. Villain 2 calls as well.

Turn 4d: A complete blank and Villain 2 bets $125 into the dry side pot. At this point I was trying to figure out what I could get value from with a raise here as well. I take out all flush draws other than AQcc. I still beat AA and KK which I think he would still bet with here. I’ve eliminated JJ essentially at this point and I’m on 1 out verses QQ. I decide to flat here as well. Again, I don’t know what the right decision is but I don’t think I can get a worse hand to call. And with one player all in I eliminate most of this bluffs.

River Ks: Villain 2 checks and I decide to go for a thin bet against AA, and AQc or KQc. Villain then max raises to $500 which would effectively put me all in (I’d have ~$50 left) and I start going deep into the tank. I start trying to think about what villain 2 would be doing here that I beat. Maybe try to bluff me with like AK or AA thinking he could be good against Villain 1. I am near certain I can beat villain 1 but I’m not sure about villain 2 here and he is the bigger concern. I tank for about 2 minutes and decide to fold. So the final question is what would you have done on both the check to me and against the check raise.

I’ll reveal the villains hands after I get a few responses but like I said I’m not sure if I played this masterfully or like a complete donkey.

[John S]

So to answer your question about whether or not you can raise there – yes, you absolutely can. You haven’t acted, so no matter what happens in front of you you can raise. It doesn’t matter what the raise is, V2 isn’t raising you, he’s raising V1. You haven’t acted, so you can raise.

Now, the 50% pot thing is only for AZ and other spread limit states. Had you been the initial bettor, you could not have raised. It would have had to have been $150. In no limit states, the bet would most likely have to be 100%, or $200.

That said, this should always be a raise here. A max raise in AZ, to $430. this is a super-wet board that will likely hit the opponents very hard. Charge them while you are so strong. V1 has a ton of hands he can continue with (2 pair, pair+ straight and/or flush draw, straight and/or flush draws, etc.). Pile money in right now. I’m max betting flop and turn.

On the river, as played, I might just check it back. It seems like you should be well ahead given his check-back, but if he raises you’re really in a tough spot. I guess it would be villain dependent as to whether or not I would call. No one should be checking a jack here, but there also aren’t many players turning 2 pair into a bluff.

And I disagree, I think you have to worry about both opponents. Main pot is around $550, but the side pot is $850, $300 to call. Even winning just the side pot is an overall win.

[Hans Griese]

I agree with John. Definitely you are allowed to raise here, and you definitely should be. And also yes, check the river back. It may feel weak, and when you’re good it’ll feel like missed value, but a check raise into a side pot after having opened and bet flop into a side pot. Seems strong. Additionally, V1 shoved pre-flop, so he is more likely to have the high pairs (aka no jacks), V2 could much more easily have a jack.

That being said, $300 to win a hefty pot might be worth the call. You’re effectively calling $300 more to win $1700 (total pots if you call). so what, 5.6 to 1, your call has to be right 18ish percent of the time. (I think that’s how it works out….someone please help me out there). Nasty situation though, I don’t hate a fold facing the raise.

[David Wibel]

So consensus seems to be that I played this hand like a donkey and with hind sight I agree. Raising the flop is the best strategy, probably just going for the max +$300 and hoping that V2 doesn’t have QQ or some strange KJs. Turn I should be raising now that I got some money into a side pot to force out any hands that have decent equity. Then on the river I should just check since I really only beat AKs and AA.

Turns out, V1 had AQs for flopped top pair with back door straight and V2… had JJ.

So he bets into a dry side pot with 2nd pair and manages to river me. But I make the fold save $300 and live to throw some more money away. I spent the rest of the night semi tilted. I wasn’t going crazy just… unhappy. I leave the night down about $600. I’ve been in this weird funk where I play decently (just not getting out of line) and then on one hand I have a brain fart and lose my stack. Sorry to be sharing my bad beat stories with you all every time but it’s how I learn best.

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