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When you are building your pre-flop ranges whether you make your own or take it from a book etc. do you study it enough to follow it exactly or just use it as a rough guideline? Do you go far enough to list everything you would open, call, 3-bet, call a 3-bet, or 4-bet and then follow them as close as possible?
I tend to be too nitty live and really need to open up so my range can hit on more than one kind of flop.
Thanks
This is a pretty broad question that could be answered in a number of ways so I will just answer it for me.
It really depends on the table and the stakes that I am playing. In lower stake games, I will use a rough guideline as well as open up my ranges because I am confident that I will make less mistakes post flop than my opponents. In higher staked games, I will tighten up a bit and be more mindful of keeping to specific value and bluffing ranges.
What do you mean by opening up your range? Are you a winning player or break-even? I ask not to be condescending, but to suggest that maybe you are losing money post flop rather than pre. If that is the case, then opening up your pre-flop range will certainly cost you more in the long run by compounding mistakes.
Good luck, hope that helps a little.
Thanks for your input. I’ve just started playing live and I’m up about $800 over the 65 hours that I’ve tracked since January this year. That being said I know live I tend to play pretty tight passive against most people. $400 came from the first 3 sessions i had and most of the time I’m leaving the casino now after 6-8 hours even or up $40. Now that some people remember me it’s harder to get action when I have my big hands.
This makes me assume that I’m probably losing out playing too tight. Not 3-betting enough pre (typically AA-JJ, AKs-AQs) and not calling 3-bets enough pre against people who 3-bet too wide. I know 65 hours isn’t a huge sample but over the next few weeks I’m going to have more flexibility to make to the poker room and I’m trying to work on my game plan.
I don’t like this “not calling 3-bets enough pre against people who 3-bet too wide” statement. In order to know that as fact you have to take them to show down personally and if you are wrong in a bloated pot its much more expensive. Remember that each player may play differently against you than others so if you see them lite in a 3 bet pot thats not against you don’t be too quick to label that behavior. Personally I think that playing tight is fine for a beginning live player. If you still really feel that your image is getting in the way then I suggest this strategy: Bluff at small pots until you get caught once and make sure everyone sees it. Like red handed embarrassment caught. You want to show them you’re not a nit for as cheap as possible so that they think you might be capable of it in larger pots. You just want to create that shadow of a doubt. Then just keep playing tight until they stop trying to look you up. Rinse and repeat. Honestly tho, I think your results from big hands also has to be tempered by remembering that in order to get action, your opponent must also have a hand (or a plan that involves inventing one). You may be confusing your results with your opponents just not having a hand that they can continue with. Happens all the time.
I am enjoying this thread so far. Thanks for bringing up the topic Drewcifer and I agree with what Tony and Funknugget have added. You don’t need to have a strict pre-flop strategy necessarily. It’s a good idea to have general guidelines but to then alter them based on the makeup of your table. If you’re playing against a bunch of maniacs who 3-bet all the time, you’re going to have to open with a narrower range. At smaller stakes I imagine you don’t run into that problem too often so you can mostly open with whatever range you feel comfortable with. If people are making a lot of post flop mistakes and overplaying hands then I may widen up to inflate the pots and magnify their mistakes. Usually I just play tight though and bet big when I have it since the biggest weakness low limit players have is that they have trouble folding. In general if you play tight-aggressive and avoid big bluffs then you’ll put together a decent hourly.
I appreciate all of the input. I agree some people play slightly differently vs me but at the same time at 1/2 the 3-bet sizing rarely get everyone to fold so I’ve been able to see enough showdowns to know I need to play a few more hands. For now I think I’ll stick to playing pretty tight. I’ll try a few more hands when I know I’ll end up in position and go from there.
As others have said it really depends on the game you are currently in. I like to come in with a game plan and then make adjustments along the way. One thing to consider if you have been playing really tight and you think opponents are getting out of line with their 3 bets go ahead and mix in a 4 bet here and there. If you are right and they are 3 betting light and your image is super tight this should pick up the pot for you. Try this maybe once a session as a bluff. That being said it’s my opinion in low limit live that you aren’t going to make money by getting people to fold. Money is made by value betting as nobody likes to fold.
Let us know what adjustments you make and how it works out!
Flop
I haven’t been able to play as much as I had hoped. I did however loosen up a little bit on the button raising limpers and calling a little lighter against certain people. My first session was 5 hours and cashed a whopping $5. I played another session today and had my biggest cash yet from 1/2. In for $200 out for $1328.
Where before when I 3-bet I would typically 3x the raise no matter who else was in the pot today I changed it up. There was a $10 raise and two callers I looked down at KK in the cutoff and raised to $50. Everyone folded but it gave me more confidence that you can get folds. Later there was a raise to $15 and one of the same callers and I had KK on the button again. After raising to $50 I did get a caller for a nice pot taken down on the flop. I ended up not widening my 3-betting range this time around mainly because I didn’t see much of a need/ the situation just didn’t show itself.
I also tried to stick to what I was saying with respecting certain peoples 3-bet ranges too much and decided to make a few calls where I felt I had an edge against my opponent or thought they were just 3-betting too wide of a range. The most memorable of this turned out to be KQs flopping a Q with a flush draw, turning a K, and after rivering an A for the nut flush getting it all in to stack my opponent who rivered a straight.
Overall I stuck very close to my tight range. Just attempted to add a few more hands to my range close to the button unopened or vs a few limpers instead of overlimping/folding. It ultimately led to taking down a handful of small to medium sized pots on on the flop or turn that before I would either not be in the hand or not have the initiative.
No comment on your play. as I reckon everyone else has that covered. But congrats on the big win.
I know it can be hard playing 2/3, seeing everyone throwing money around with junk and waiting patiently for the goods to get involved. So good on you for not getting sucked into playing too wide a range.
Hello Drew,
To answer your questions, yes for the most part I study it enough to follow it exactly. Additionally, I do have a list of hands that I’m 3 betting, just calling (which is not very often), and 4 betting. In my opinion, preflop is the absolute most important street poker as every single hand we play involves making a preflop decision whether it be folding, calling or raising; it happens every hand. Ones preflop play ultimately sets the stage for the rest of the hand. Without a solid preflop strategy, it’s nearly impossible to develop a winning poker strategy on later streets, in my humble opinion. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’s correct to nit up, wait for Phil Hellmuths top 10 hands and play only those hands; otherwise people would be able to develop an optimal strategy against you via your capped range. What I am saying is that preflop play is certainly a skill, it’s important to have a solid preflop game plan along with a post flop game plan. Many players mistakes ultimately result from making a poor preflop mistake. A great question and I wish you nothing but the best of luck on the felt. -Jeff-
It’s a really interesting topic and as people have said the answer really is “it depends”.
I approach different types of games differently (tournament/cash and different stakes) and will try to adjust once i have a feel for the table.
The only thing I’d add is that it’s better to start with a fairly conservative strategy and then open up in certain spots (and vs specific opponents).
The alternative may prove costly, so if you are doing anything wrong here then at least you’re making the right mistake, if that makes any sense?
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