Should I have shoved the flop?

[Mich]

Hey all, just signed up. I watch all of Owen and Neeme’s vlogs and I wanna join a smaller community where I can discuss hands etc…. so this seems perfect
I’m a reg player but do play pretty serious most weekends, cash and tourneys, do some online training when I have time like RIO, and I do several trips a year including the WSOP.

Anyway, I just played in the $1.1k Colorado Poker Championship ME and wanted to discuss my busto hand.

Blinds are 3k/1.5k 500 ante. I have about 40k left (13bb). Its day 2 and about 20 ppl away from min cash but that’s not really relevant in this.

-I am BB and wake up with Q9o.
-MP limps (~150k), Button limps (well over 300k and chip leading table), SB calls (short stack ~25k) and I check. Four ways to the flop
-Flop is KQ9 rainbow giving me two pair. Everyone checks
-Turn is a 3s putting 2 spades on the board.
-SB jams for 25k, I re-jam for 40k, MP think for a while and calls, and button folds.
-SB shows spade flush draw, I show my 2 pair, and unfortunately MP shows a better two pair with K3 which he caught on the turn.
-I’m drawing to a Q or 9 and unfortunately spades X hits river and SB triples up and I bust.

So my question is, should I have just shoved the flop with two pair where I was ahead and been happy to take the $12k pot + antes??? I feel like I got too greedy, and probably should’ve been content with any pot given my short stack. If I had jammed the flop I am not sure if MP would’ve called with his top pair and 3 kicker. I am leaning towards him folding because I had been playing pretty tight and it would’ve been about 25-30% of his stack to call.

My logic for the check was that a) MP and button had been relatively aggressive so I was praying they would bet and I would check raise all-in and b) the flop was pretty connected and I would’ve expected either MP or button to hit something and make a bet.

Unfortunately the check all around allowed MP to turn better 2 pair and SB to get his flush draw.

Did I play this bad? What would you have done?

Thanks.

• This topic was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Mich.
• This topic was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Mich.
• This topic was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Mich.

[Mike Springett]

I might have gone all-in myself, or perhaps I would’ve bet big on the flop and chalked it up as a cooler once the turn hits the villain. Checking the flop is a mistake, as gutshots could also hit the turn.

Also, a lot of all-in ranges could involve gutshots and backdoor draws, so shoving and betting big are the only 2 debatable options IMO.

Keep up the studying and grinding Mich!

Peace out,

Mike

[Mich]

Thanks for the response Mike and I will take that on board. Appreciate it.

[Dan]

Hey Mich,

I agree, I think its a shove here on the flop. But I cant really fault you for expecting a bet here with aggressive players like you said.

I dont think you really made any mistakes given you had the right plan, it just didnt go as hoped. Just shoving the flop does make sense considering your stack size, and you dont really have enough chips to get to tricky as you found out.

But I think you already know that which is why I dont think you did anything wrong really with the plan you had in mind. Just happened to not work out.

If you have time, feel free to take a look at a hand I posted a few days ago in a cash game. Topic is called PLEASE GIVE FEEDBACK ON THIS GROSSS SPOT!!!

Hope my thoughts helped man!

[Mich]

Thanks Dan Appreciate it!

[tommy bolin]

i disagree i like the check on the flop you just got unlucky,the 3 on the turn looks a great card for you, you got what u wanted with the push from the sb on a draw.think the k3 was a terrible open esp with the sb stack, and not sure he would have dropped to you pushing the flop when he had hit top pair to the size of your stack if hes opening with hands like this.would like to know if he had been playing like this all the time and had shown any other poor plays, cause another way to look at this hand if he had been playing loose and only raising big hands, i might have considered a push when 3 players flattered as the sb and button shouldn’t have a better hand and mp can’t play with button covering him with k3 sort of hand,but im a very aggro player lol

[Mich]

Thanks tommy. Yeah it is a terrible limp by MP I agree.
I wish I played more pots with him but unfortunately didnt get as much info.

[theNorwigianViking]

I belive the best course of action is to lead a little over half pot on the flop. There is a lot of worse hands that can call you, and by betting you deny equity to those hands. Many of the worse hands that will likely call you are top-pair hands and pair + flush draw hand. These hand combinations are common in the limpers range. In this multiway pot and specific bord, these are often being checked back. This displays how you are likely to get greater action by betting. Slow playing definitely has a place in a winning poker strategy, however, this flop is not were you want to implement it. Furthermore, you fold out some hands with significant equity, primarily Jx and 10x.

The lead on the flop also enables you to bet the rest of your stack on most turns, and put a great number of worse hands, with often considerable equity, to the test (K-10 has for example 27% equity on brick turns).

I can see your reasoning for checking. You have just flopped a massive hand and want maximum value. In some instances this could be the best course of action, however, because of the very cordinated board, supplemented with the fact that this are a multiway pot, i have illustrated why I think that is a mistake.

[Tyler Young]

I’m jamming pre, 16k in the middle and if you take down the dead money you increase your stack by 40%. If you don’t jam pre i think you have to lead that flop for about 10k. Your hand is strong but vulnerable to any J, 10, A turns or possibly any other weird turns that make 2 pair. You also set yourself up for a turn jam if called.

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