Tightest Fold Ever?!? Gahhhh the AGONY!!!!

[Adam]

Preface: Villain in this scenario is a 25 year old LAG Asian kid. Very solid player. Applies lots of pressure. I am typically a TAG player who can be passive at times. I just recently started playing 2/5 regularly so this could attribute to my nitty fold. I am sitting on a $1500 stack and my opponent has about $2,100 in front of him.

Here we go.

I am in the small blind. Villain limps UTG. Folds around to the button who limps. I look down at red Pocket Kings. I make it $25 (probably a bit small in retrospect) in the small blind. Big blind folds. Villain (UTG) calls. Button folds. We go to the flop heads up.

Flop comes: J J 6 two clubs.

I bet $40 with my Pocket Kings. Villain raises it to $200 quickly. I call.

Turn comes 5 of spades. The board is now…

J J 6 5 two clubs.

I check. Villain bets $305 quickly. I tank fold.

I don’t fold because of the amount (I don’t think). I fold because I don’t know what my plan of action is on the river assuming it isn’t one of the two Kings remaining in the deck or possibly the third Jack.

I chalk this fold up as pretty nitty and in hindsight I feel like I should have re-raised him big on the flop. OR possibly even shoved on the turn after his $305 turn bet. I just feel like playing this deep with only a pair of kings was NOT worth playing for stacks.

Later in the session Villain told me that he had 7 8 of clubs…meaning he flopped the flush draw with a back door straight door and turned the open ended straight draw to go along with his club draw.

But please, feel free to comment and leave me some feedback! I have been playing well and running good the last month or so. My confidence level in my game is at an all time high and I am seeing the results. HOWEVER, this hand really bothered me as I am pretty sure I folded the best hand. As I mentioned, I have only been playing 2/5 for a few weeks and a part of me feels like this fold was a result of me still getting accustomed to 2/5 from the 1/2 and 1/3 levels! I also talked myself into a fold because I definitely felt as if he could of had a Jack in his range…something like J7, J8, J9, J10, JQ, or JA (probably suited). So the thought of that and telling myself that I was drawing to only two outs is really what talked me into folding. Also, the thought of facing a monster bet on the river was unappealing as I wasn’t sure how to play it assuming it wasn’t one of the two remaining Kings in the deck.

Thanks in advance.

-AD

[Ian McClellan]

Adam – I don’t hate your play here. $225 into this feels painful (I play at the 1/2 1/3 tables most often as well) because of the amount of work you have to put in at lower levels to grind up your stack that much – but the swings in a 2/5 are more substantial. It’s like folding $100 into a 1/2 pot – which I think we have all done.

It’s one of those spots where folding feels gross, but out of position, with a fairly certain SHOVE coming on the river and so few ‘feel good’ outs… I think you made the right laydown. The only good thing about this play is that it sets you up for the same scenario later in the night – when you do flop the world – where this guy (or similar types at the table) will set mega-bluffs because they have seen you pushed off a hand earlier. Could work out in your favor!

Go keep after it!

[Craig]

The fold is too tight. Calling is your best option. The problem here is your inability to come up with a plan. You need to ask yourself what is my opponent betting with here?

He limped UTG and decided to call your preflop raise, and then raise your flop bet. With two clubs on the flop we can easily assess a potential flush draw, but as you are unsure of your opponents style a jack is not out of the realm of possibilities. However, his bet sizing makes little to any sense what-so-ever. His flop raise is too big for a J, so flush draws go up in likelihood. This does not mean a J is not in his hand it just isn’t the sort of play one would make with a J. You want to get paid by an over pair, not get an over pair to fold.

The plan of action is based on generating this type of information. A call is warranted on the turn. If he hits his straight it is well concealed and you will most likely pay him off. If a club flush hits, you can fold, but just about every other card in the deck is a call for you on the river.

[Adam]

Excellent. I appreciate both of the above perspectives. I think I would tend to agree with Craig a bit more, however. Why on earth would he bet so aggressively with a Jack in his hand?…doesn’t add up. I would also agree with the assessment of if his hand hits a straight, then I’ll just pay him off as it would be insanely disguised. If a club hits, I’ll fold. If any other card hits I should be golden.

But hey, lesson learned!

Ian, I agree completely. Knowing how long it takes to grind up a stack in 1/2 or 1/3 probably played a role subconsciously in my decision to fold. As I stated in the original post, I tend to be a bit more TAG so generally I prefer to take the lower variance route anyway. BUT I know that it’s being able to make the proper calls in the proper spots that will allow me to be an even more versatile and dangerous player going forward. Adjusting to the 2/5 game will definitely take some time. But based on my limited experiences thus far, 2/5 is so much closer to “pure poker” compared to many shenanigans that you see at the 1/2 and 1/3 levels. Let’s stay after em’ and stack those chips. Cheers!

Thanks again and good luck at the tables!

-AD

[cykotic]

I agree with Craig, his over bet on the flop screams no J. He did you a huge favor and revealed something very key about his hand and where you stood at that exact moment. If you come over the top of him and bet $450 (roughly the size of the pot plus match of his $200) I bet he folds because now he thinks you have the J or maybe even Qs, Ks or As. Either way he likely knows he’s beat and hopefully will feel like it’s too expensive to chase his draw.

[Chuck]

I agree with the analysis here others have put forward. Another possibility is as follows: you offered a detailed description of someone while describing yourself as new to the 2/5 game. What you know about him, I would assume he knows about you – not less. New to a higher stake game, tighter player – he may have just pushed you off your hand with aggression no matter his holdings. Good luck at 2/5 – another note, depending on place, a lot of time it’s much like 1/2, 1/3 just more cash – meaning I avoid folding overpairs to the flop unless I clearly think the villain has caught the flush or straight, even then I can get stubborn. Been burned by players who overplay their hands too many times at low levels.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

I think it sounds like you aren’t comfortable at the stakes (yet).

*If you’re going to fold to a line like this from the villain, then I think you need to reevaluate your flop bet. With paired board, you are unlikely to get 3 streets of value with KK anyway. You can check the flop with a plan to check/call all streets if opponent then bets the flop. Against a LAG player, you may get them to start a bluff on the flop and see it all the way through 3 streets. If the opponent checks back the flop, then you can start betting for value on the turn.
*Some players will raise the flop with a jack, but I think most of a LAG’s raising range is hands without jacks. Once he raises you on the flop, you need to need to think about a plan for the rest of the hand. A LAG player is unlikely to bluff raise you on the flop and then give up. Against a player like this, you need to be prepared to call flop and check/call turn and river on most run outs because you are at the top of your range.

[Author]

Posts