Two folds: Should I have called?

[Dave Thompson]

Both hands from last night’s 1/3 NL game at local American Legion card room.

First hand:

9-handed. I start with ~$1150 in late position. Villain has ~$300 in middle position. Villain is a reasonably smart player who is a little stuck and maybe slightly on tilt.

Pre-flop: 3 limps to me. I raise to $15 with 9d9c. One limper and Villain call.
Flop: 4c9hJh – Checks to me. I bet $30. Villain calls.
Turn: Jd – Villain checks. I bet $60. Villain calls.
River: Jc – Villain bets $100. I tank for a long time and fold.

Villain shows KhQh.

Second hand:

6-handed. I start with ~$950 on the button. Villain has ~$1500 in middle position. Villain is a middle-aged lady who has been hitting hands like crazy for the last 2-3 hours but also playing solidly.

Pre-flop: 2 limps in front of me. I limp behind with Ad6d. SB calls and BB checks.
Flop: 6c6h9s – SB bets $15. Villain raises to $100. I 3-bet to $260. Villain tanks and calls.
Turn: 9h – Villain goes all in immediately. I tank for about 30 seconds and fold.

Villain shows 5s6s.

The primary question for both hands is “should I have called?” Obviously I would have won the first hand and chopped the second if I had called, but that doesn’t mean they were bad folds. I have my own opinions, but I don’t want to influence anybody’s analysis, so I’ll hold my thoughts for a follow-up post.

Also please make any other criticisms or comments you think are warranted regarding either hand. For example, should I have raised pre-flop with the Ad6d rather than limp behind? Should I have raised more on the flop with that hand?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you all may have.

Cheers,
Dave

[Chris]

Hi, Ok, i will give my take on both hands.

Hand 1. Your flop bet is ok, i may have bet $45 given the two hearts on the board, but dont have a problem with your sizing of $30 into a pot of $51 ish. I put caller on a flush draw or Jx hand. Turn bet is half pot, I probably would have bet a little more, but i can understand wanting to keep the other in the hand against your full house. I put villain on flush draw and Jx hand. I think if he had AJ he would raise on the turn. So i think KJ,QJ,J10 and flush draw.

River, Villain bets $100, not even half pot ($220ish), I have to make the crying call here. If he got there with Kj, or QJ etc, then i have to pay that off. I have blocker to J9 so i dont think he has this most of the time here. I played the set, then full house under represented to keep him to river. I have to think he also may have missed flush and cant win at showdown or has 44.

I am not happy to call, but i have to the way it was played.

—————————————————————————-

Second hand is much easier call for me and i am never folding there.

On flop of 966, Villain reraised to $100 and then flat calls your 3 bet of $260. This is pretty much narrowing the range to just one hand type in my opinion.some 6x hand. 65,64,86,76. I dont think she has a 9x hand to call another $160. I dont think she will do this for two pair good kicker against my obvious 6 hand. You are repping the 6 completely.
What does villain have to make the flat call? Will she do this with AA,KK or 99, or 96?

Since i have blocker to the 6, i can probably remove 96, and she is not in blind. While she MIGHT play 96 suited, if she had 99 or 96 suited for flopped top full house, wouldnt she reraise the 3 bet and get it all in? She would certainly put me on a 6x hand and know i will call when i show the strength to 3 bet her. So i can remove 99 as well.

Will she do this with AA or KK and see the turn. maybe. will she do this with 6x hand? yes. So on the flop villain has 6x ( which we beat with A6,) AA or KK. She folds any 9x hand and probably folds AA,KK having to put me on a 6 once i 3 bet. So the only hand she can have is 6x hand. There arent any others that make sense.

good luck at the tables

Chris

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Chris.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Chris.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Chris.

[Dave Thompson]

Thanks very much for this great input Chris. In retrospect, I completely agree with both of your analyses. In the first hand, he may have a jack, but enough of his range is missed flush draws that I really needed to call for that price. In the second hand, I agree (again, in retrospect) that it’s very unlikely she would call my 3-bet on the flop with just a 9. I also agree that if she already had a boat on the flop, she would have 4-bet shoved for value since I’m obviously representing a 6.

So the opinion that I withheld in the initial post is that I botched both of these hands. They were both definite calls IMO and in each case I let my frustration at seeing a bad card hit the board cloud my judgment, convince me I was beat, and turn my winning session into a barely-better-than-break-even session. Grrrrr! I need to learn to take a step back in these spots and think through the hand very clearly and logically without allowing emotion to get in the way of my decision making. It’s all part of the growth of a poker player I suppose.

Cheers,
Dave

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Dave Thompson.

[Dan]

Hey Dave,

These spots are always tricky when you have an above avg hand in position and get lead into on the river. I agree with Chris on the first hand, that a crying call is probly the right play. The pre flop action is what makes me want to call there. So he limp called pre flop? If he somehow shows up with 10s plus then so be it lol. At the same time it is a tough spot like I said to be lead into on the river when they check called the whole way, so its not the worst fold ever either.

I was in a similar situation that I posted on here, the topic is called PLEASE GIVE FEEDBACK ON THIS GROSS SPOT!!!

Hand 2: That’s a hand you can def raise to knock players out pre, but I don’t see anything wrong with how you played it either. Just an unfortunate turn card. If you are going to raise it pre flop though you have to make it $20 minimum in my opinion with $13 already in the pot, just to make sure hands like that fold. As for the call or fold question, that is a big jam. I honestly probly fold there too knowing its probly not the right play if that makes sense. Because like Chris said, how often is she calling your 3 bet with 9x? Not often, but her shove sizing would make me believe she did in fact call with one, and I would probly fold too, knowing it makes no sense. If she had 9x you would think she would just check it to you, so idk man, another spot where I can not blame you for laying it down.

Hope this helped a little bit!

[Jameson]

Hey Dave, I think this might be an outlook thing you need to fix going forward. Sounds like when you see a bad card for your, you’re initial judgement is that you must be beat, probably because of past experiences where bad cards meant defeat for you. However, going forward I would think about how your opponent might know that’s a bad card for you, and be good enough to represent it, and then you can take advantage of that. Also, think about ranges in spots like that. Think like ‘would my opponent reasonably call here with flush draws’ if so, and they missed, their only chances of winning is to rep a card it seems unlikely for you to have. take care.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Jameson.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Jameson.

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