@soccrian
Active 7 years agoForum Replies Created
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If it’s me, I just flat the $25, as you suggest. Get to the river and realize your equity or minimize your loss. One of the two of them, especially the MP player, may be on the heart draw as well and you could light them up if they bet into you and really put them in a pickle.
Raising to $85 looks very polarized – as the only real hands that improve with that 10d that call $15 on the flop are a combo draw like Jh 9h, pocket 10s (which would have likely 3-bet pre or raised post-flop with 3 unders), maybe something like Ah-10h… There aren’t a lot of combos he is worried about. I think you have to consider what that raise looks like to him – and what line would you be on?
What did you put him on that just called the pre-flop raise and lead out both post-flop and post-turn? I would expect to see something like a flopped-trip (5-5, 6-6, 8-8) or more likely, an over-pair to the board – not scared by the 10, but definitely not wanting to see the river fall ANOTHER connected straight card or another heart to bring in the flush. Smells a lot like JJ,QQ,KK,AA or a tripped pocket pair, in my opinion.
Probably a good lay-down either way, but probably could have saved yourself $60 by just flatting and seeing what the river dictates! Good luck!
Agree with Chuck here. You have 22 BB at this stage in the tourney – it’s a shove. Original raiser committed 15% of his stack to the pot already, and you had the big stack to your left that might have seen a chance to 2-birds-with-1-stone had he looked down at a decent holding. Had anyone else come along, you might have picked up a MUCH larger pot as the UTG+1 would basically HAVE TO call with a chance to triple up.
As it stood, you picked up 500*9 + 3000 + 1500 + 8500 without seeing a flop. So you increased your stack by 25% (17.5k) without seeing a flop! I call that a WIN. Could you have gotten more value, sure. Could the flop have come Q-Q-10 or 10-K-J or some other buzzkill? Sure. Ship it!
I am with Matt C. Even if he follows the same action-pattern as the previous hand, it’s VERY easy to convince yourself that this is a line he will play very polarized. Could he have A-K and play the same way? Sure. Could he have AA, JJ, 10-10, 9-9 and played it the same way? YEP. I think there are SO many other hands he would play this way, there is really not any way to get away from it, in my opinion. Tough spot and had you found some miracle way to fold it and he not shown, you would have been tilting HARD (Or I would be, anyway). Coolers are real.
I am with the pack – reverse tell. Angle shooting has a negative connotation that I don’t think this act is necessarily deserving of given the way you describe it. If the action was on him, and he was acting like he was going to muck to see what you were going to do behind and THEN call, I could see that being an angle – but he was just portraying weakness to influence your decision. At the end of the day, we all act certain ways to try to influence players around the table. Throwing chips vs. placing them, round numbers vs. seemingly strange bet-sizing, facial reaction, chip tricks, speed of action… I think holding his cards above the table in a ‘fold’ fashion was misleading (and probably intentional to influence your decision) but I hesitate to call it angle-shooting.
Never played poker on a cruise – but I would be interested to hear if you can get action. My guess would be it’s totally hit-or-miss if you have people on the boat willing and able to play – and what amount of time they will commit to a table-game inside a ship’s casino when they have spouse, family, and paradise outside… I LOVE poker, but if I am on a ship, I am probably doing something else. If the weather is crappy though, and you have a day-at-sea — you might have a whole herd of people wanting to play. Could get interesting!
I think you are dead-on with your analysis. You could have re-popped it on the flop, but the board being so dry, I think you were right to just flat and conceal your hand value (she could have read that flat as 2-overs with a BD flop option, floating one not wanting to give up so early. On the turn, you COULD have bet bigger, but – had the 4 not come on the river, you would have been happy to have that extra $30 in the pot…. I think it’s one of those spots where you are too good to throw it away – a smart player could be putting you on a total miss (AK-AQ-AJ) and just trying to take down the pot with A-7, A-2, or nothing at all. Sometimes you just can’t win. Reload and keep after it!
Chuck – I appreciate your thoughts as well. I think I could have minimized the pain a little with a lead on the turn – either that or keep my line as a check/call and probably could’ve saved myself some money. I did think about the fact that I would get to see the showdown either way – but at that point I just thought there was too much in the pot to walk away for less than $100… UGH. Never made it back that night, just kinda played a little scared (never the best way to play) and ended up leaving a few hours later. Another night will come.
I was pretty surprised that the nut flush just checked as well – he probably thought that either the fish or I would C-bet and he could continue to underplay the strength of his hand. I do think that a check-call on the turn and river is probably a better go overall.
Thanks for your thoughts, Matt.
I think you played this exactly the way I would HOPE to play this hand. You played it for the flush, you made the flush, you have to at least call. I would be hard-pressed to not hammer that river, but I would have lost some serious coin! Well done.
Your whole line (and his line) confuses the heck out of me. I think you lost the absolute absolute minimum. Him flatting your pre-flop raise, not 3-betting after makes no sense. Him leading out the flop I might expect with an A-free flop, but why did you not raise that $20? Dry board? He is saying he had a piece of that, so why not kick in a raise at $55-60? At the turn when he checks – you have to barrel – why did you check behind? You ‘knew’ he had KK? Maybe you got a crazy-good read…. but it seems a little suspect that you could narrow him on that hand vs. KX Broadway… He could have played KJ, KQ, AK the exact same – I would. Especially if I was suited spade, although then I would have smashed the turn with a big bet. If I hit my trip K on the turn with the spades out there like he did – I would be getting value on the turn – definitely not checking. NO WAY I expect my opponent to put me on KK after I flat a $15 raise preflop – that’s the EXACT reason that I flat pre-flop – so I can HAMMER the K when it comes. IDK bro- I think you have to call that river. Unlikely he has the Spades for the flush and if you tell me you read he had KK I believe you, but I think you are obligated to a call, and losing $15+20+35 seems like a fair price for second set. Really weird lines for both of you, in my opinion.
Hey Eric – Welcome to the forum! Hope you enjoy Texas – were you a Motor City guy when you were here in the Detroit area?
Learning in-game is important – seeing the hands play out and learning peoples’ tendencies over time will translate well later when you can play for money. That being said – people play a much looser/more aggressive style in free chips games, because it doesn’t have ramifications if they lose. People play all their draws, regardless of pot odds, and that simply doesn’t happen in cash games with any significant money on the table. What I would tell you do do now in your early stage is to learn the math of the game, your probabilities of draws hitting on different streets, etc… and that will help you down the line.
Another obvious thing you can do is start to build a bankroll. When you do start playing for money, you will need to have funds to accommodate the variance that is part of poker, especially in the early going. I don’t know how far you are away from legal gambling age, but getting yourself a fund set aside now will put you that much further ahead when you are able to play.
Love to see a younger generation getting involved! Cheers Aidan.
Ian, Ohio, USA
I don’t mind the play at all. 9/10 of the time you are taking the guy off the hand post-flop with the raise – unless you have a loose-aggressive image and he thinks that the 2nd pair is good. The turn bet is fine too, I suppose – as you have the open-ended and can continue to barrel him off whatever he caught on the flop (I could have just as easily put him on A-9/K-9 or A-Q/K-Q).
When he shoves all-in overtop, you really can’t be good, unless your image says that you can be pushed off a pot like that. But you still have the up-and-down to fall back on if your Js aren’t good……
IDK dude, it’s a terrible spot. 2nd pair with a draw to a straight/trips…. have to possibly miss a spade if he’s on the draw too… I guess at the end of the day the only place I consider a fold is the shove at the end.
Tell me more about the ‘match stacks’ policy at Greektown? The table buy is capped at the high stack at the table?! I totally agree that the $200 cap at the 1/2 NL table does make it tough to have a short session – you’re right. Most of the people at any given table are between $100-300 and so you have to really grind your stack up to get any big wins. I will tell you that Hollywood isn’t SUPER strict on this – the dealers especially – so if you sit with $225 or $250, you can usually get away with it unless another player says something. I usually sit with $220 (2 rows of $5s and 1 row of $1s) and I very rarely (maybe 1 in 10) get called out by another player. Everyone should want more money on the table – I am not sure why the casinos cap it so low. You’d think bigger stacks = bigger pots and bigger pots = more rake… ??
I have heard that about MotorCity – but I think it’s pretty true wherever you play 1/2NL. You have to play pretty tight when grinding the 1/2NL, and a bluff is basically a donation, cause someone is chasing you to showdown every hand. I did see that the Bad Beat is something wacky – I can’t even believe that it is at $800k. That’s crazy. I think Hollywoods is like $50k, but they also have a mini-bad-beat jackpot that is 10% of the main that I think hits fairly regularly. I play 2/5NL very rarely anymore, I can’t stomach the swings like I used to. I like getting in for $200-220, and hit the bricks around $500.
Toledo is a good time – on a Friday/Saturday night if you want to to put in a 6-8 hour session from like 7p-3a, you can make some great money! Plenty of loose action.