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@thebrennan
Thank you for your thorough response.
I’ll share my work on the hand with you:HJ in this hand has no limping range, meaning he’s opening all the hands he wants to play when folded to him. So his opening range from HJ is stretched. This is why I think I have to 3-bet. While vs. players who have limp/call range in UTG, utg+1 mp, hj, I’d just open large. This is just a guesstmation of course, but I have to note that he has been aware of my loose open and 3bets from CO. In this particular session I was either 3-betting or folding from CO vs. field opener (most of the time) because of the aggro on BTN. So, this is the second time that I 3-bet the HJ both times he ended up seeing a flop. Hence the 3-bet size (4x)
Assuming this is HJ open range:
I am 3-betting with this range:
<br />upload<br />BTN’s 4-bet range is not as tight as you imagine it to be imo. However if we assume that he’s not 4-bet bluffing vs CO & HJ lite, his range would be with only half AQo, AJs combos and occasional JJ:
I like calling as a set mine especially getting almost 4|1 Vs. dominated and dominating ranges. I’m gonna check/ fold a lot, but I think when I hit my set, I’ll be scooping a big pot.
that is assuming that HJ calls with this range:
There’s also this crazy idea that I always have in the back of my head that I am up verses two suited Aces sometimes and my pocket pair has a lot more equity vs. two opponents. Meaning I could be at 63% pre and not always at 18%.. I know this line of thinking is flawed, but I always think bout that. “what if I’m against Aks and Ajs?” folding is pretty bad.
Once the flop checks around:
BTN’s range looks like this imo:
With the pink hands as traps and red as pot-controlling/bad traps.
Initially, I was like oh shhit, I’m fucked.
BUT I think I’m ought to call in hindsight. I’m only worried about the occasional 12 combos traps. He’s pretty good and def. capable of checking back top & middle sets, however vs. two players & on this board, like you said, it’s pretty unlikely.My plan was to check/call the flop & proceed with caution
then, I was planning on bet/folding turn, hence the size that would not commit me and is large enough to deny advantageous bluffs.
Then, his physical tells were unbelievable.. acting way too strong and counting the money for me in a way that is trying to intimidate me. One of the reasons I called is because he said, “top pair no good” he thought I’d have AJs, ATs, AQo, here…Idk I just decided that he’s acting weird and I have a pretty good hand.I think he played it bad. He should’ve called then folded the river imo.
What do you think?
everyone lie about their hand all the time…
You can play it this way if you think this villain has AK, AQ, AJ in their cold call range pre because they’re not folding AK, AQ, or AJ most of the time. Or You only check if you think he’s gonna stab a lot and you gonna call then check/raise the river.
I like bet/bet/bet.
What do you have when you check/raise/re-raise the turn?
I don’t think you’d have A5 suited and this is why betting here is better than checking. You are opening early position, you have all the Ax suited plus big aces, all of which you’ll keep betting with. You’re gonna check/fold or check/call one time the turn with the rest of your range. When you check raise the turn you only have boats plus AK.
I know you feel robbed that he hero folded here, but from his perspective, he’s beat most of the time and it’s hard for him to boat up vs sets.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I ended up getting the second min-cash in this 3.4K entrants tourney.
@theonlybjlegend
I agree with 3-betting. I’d say I 3-bet 99 here 3/5 times. With no HUD and being just moved to the table vs one of the chip leaders, I decided to flat at 120BB effective. Is it the best decision? Hard not to be result oriented. Playing Vs. narrow range here is better for we fold 67 suited compos most of the time and all the low Ax as you said.
@nitokris
I agree. I am not proud of my fold. I still don’t know what to do and act skittish when I’m faced with out of flow bets. I am more worried about 67 suited combos here than A2 given that Ax of hearts is impossible here. The mistake is not 3-betting pre imo. I still have a long way to go in tourney play. Like in this case, I wasn’t sure what to do with 99 and 120bb deep versus the only player that covers.👍
Just now:
2/5 NL at MGM Detroit
UTG+1 opened $20
CO, Btn & SB call all of them were 100-150bb deep
I’m in BB with 9♦️7♦️
I raise to $90
CO calls
Flop is A♥️8♣️4♦️
I bet $75
CO folds.I raised pre this specific time because of this post, gotta do whatcha preaching right😅?
Hi!
Just an annoying spot.
In BB/this case straddle vs limp&raise or raise&call, I like 3-betting my 98 suited down to 54 suited or fold them simply because they’re too week to call OOP. I think calling is not a great play ESPECIALLY vs a limp and btn open. I don’t know what raising it up to $65 looks like to an avg 1/2 player (I mean your opponents; is it interpreted as top 5% hands all the time?) of course vs appropriate stack sizes
When you 3-bet a number of scenarios might happen:
1-You take it down
2-You get called in one spot
3-You get called in two spots
4-You get 4-bet.
5- You get called, then face a 4-betoption 1 is what we want with 87dd. If we raise and scoop all the time, we should be happy because we won with 8 high!
Option 2 will allow us to win on various boards and even double barreling on some boards. On this specific board, we can bet confidently repping over pairs and continue betting on the turn blank.
on boards such as A82, A73, A99, AK4, K22, Q22, Q54, etc. we can rep any ace and shut down if we get action.
On boards like AJT, KJ9, QJ8, QT9, JT3, We can check/fold and be proud that we tried.The best thing about getting option 2 is that the caller’s range of hands does not overlap with our small suited connectors. We want a call from AJ, AT, A9, KQ, KJ, QJ … We’re only in trouble if we get over flushed which is very rare or they have 99 TT JJ QQ because we might get unwanted action from them on boards when we have a pair + straight draw.
Now, of course you have a better read on your opponents and whether UTG is limp/raising a lot or btn is not opening lite etc..
Another thing why raising or folding here is better is because when we do flop big, we can stack pocket JJ QQ 99 even slow played KK & AA. Besides, we need to 3-bet some of the suited connectors sometimes. We can’t just be high-cards-heavy everytime we 3-bet. Folding is also a better option because we’re playing against two players OOP. if we call, one of them could have us dominated A7, A8, J9, J8,T8, 98 all of which would have a good price to call. All of which would most likely not call 3-bet either. When we call, we’re setting ourselves up to loose or get bluffed. We need a 773 board to feel confident, even with that, we would not feel we’re ahead 100% of the time when we get played back at by over pairs because of our shitty kicker. When we 3-bet with these hands, we eliminate a large deal of potential problems. This is might be more true in 5/10 and 2/5 but I think it applies to 1/2 as well.
let me know what you think.
No, folding top pair top kicker is not a winning play every time you face a check/raise.
This is an exploitative fold as you said. I agree with you and Han.Good players would check/raise with various hands (QJ, Q9, JT, J9, ,J7, 97, and 96). They would be balanced in this spot.
You made the correct fold this time because you think this villain is unlikely to check/raise draws.
Since you’re picking up on his tendency post flop, you should also have picked up on his lite open in early position. Many of the combos that have an 8 should fold pre to a 3-bet. So we also learn that this villain is opening lite and we should exploitativly 3-bet him lite 😉This is a natural human behavior and changing it (to an unnatural constant state) is very hard. I am an expert on the topic of Behavioral Finance. I teach it.
I think you will find this short article pretty interesting: https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2017/10/14/richard-thaler-wins-the-nobel-prize-for-economic-sciences
As you read it, just try to apply it to your poker problem.In my little research on the topic, I found that players who are less effected by the tendency to protect their gains in their winning sessions, treat their stack as a capital investment in the session.
To elaborate, you are worth $1,000, let’s assume you bought stocks in the capital market at 11am for $200 and you have made capital gains (meaning the price of the stock you purchased went up) while the market is open. Your investment at 2:45pm is worth $290 dollars. Do you have any of the $290 in your pocket right now? The answer is no. The reason is because you have not ended your investment session yet. Only when you end the investment session will you count your gains as incurred (in the books).Similarly in poker, you can treat every session as a grand investment session and every hand as a mini investment session. You have to have the same standards by which you select your investments. Your ability to withstand risk should be the same throughout your investments. Your hand selection is an element that constitutes the risk you’re taking. For example, when you’re playing 76suited, the math says you would not have a made hand on the flop 65.4% of the time. However, you would flop a flush draw, OESD, or a gutshot 10.9%, 9.6%, 16.6% of the time respectively. So, if you know the math says that you would have a hammer on the hand on the flop (quads, fullhouse,flush, straight, trips, two pair) 5.5% and have a weak pair, middle pair, top pair 29% and you find this investment appealing, you should be making the same decision regarding the investment throughout your grand investment session unless of course other variables change such as raises and position.
The bottom line is, each hand is an independent investment, the money that we have on the table is what we are worth during the grand session, our gains have not incurred because we haven’t ended the session. The money we’re committing in the hand is our investment. We wanna make money on every investment we make, and we think we have a good strategy to do that, then why change the winning strategy.
I can talk about this all day, let me know if you have a question.
Hey John! I appreciate your comments on the forums. I’m gonna try to talk a bit about strategy and fundamentals. This doesn’t mean that any play is correct or incorrect 100% of the time. There’s also the factor that you have a better read on the table & you know what you can get away with.
Hand 1: We have to standardize our open. We hardly wanna play any hand from SB, and when we do, we wanna be the aggressor. Normally, after 20 minutes/ 1-2 orbits, you get a feel on what the appropriate open is. If it’s 3bb then we add 1 bb to every limper. Besides, we need to take under consideration the stack sizes. I do open larger vs straddles because they defend on higher frequency. So $70 is not always bad. Sometimes you’d have to even open for more, it’s table-dependent imo.
Another thing, we get dealt premiums/ top 5% hands only 5% of the time according to my math 😀 so if we’re getting dealt 26 hands/hour, we would have gotten 1 premium holding. If we are opening 16% (that includes some KQo combos) SB against two limps, we would have to have a portion of our range that we’re gonna open/fold a portion to open/call a portion to open/4-bet and these ranges should be set and studied off the table and we deviate from it should we need to. Some recs would interpret a large open as a premium regardless of the situation, so we don’t wanna loose them when we do have a premium.
Hand 2: I would personally fold pre. Again, I’m not at the table and idk if it’s profitable to open it. This is imo a perfect board to check OOP. K66 villain can have a K a 6 all pocket pair lower than JJ and A-high floats (AT and AJ) specifically, all backdoors QJ suited specifacally. Our perceived range is optimal and we hit top pair. We can have KK AA AK QQ JJ TT AQ KQ suited. When we c-bet every time we connect with the board, we allow villain to play against us perfectly. They can fold every time or use your capped UTG open range to put you in uncomfortable situations. This could have been played as check/call all along because villain (if deep) can value bet worse like 88 would bet/check/call here or bluff. When we c-bet/check/bet. We allowed villain to see all 5 cards charging the min and allowed him to comfortably fold.
Hand 3: without stack sizes, hard to say anything. I have no problem with folding the turn. I have no problem c-betting flop. we have to bet some of our middle pairs. This is a great candidate.Hand 4: This is (with appropriate stack sizes) a mandatory 3-bet. The problem with not 3-betting is that our hand looks a lot weaker than what it actually is. This could be an advantage when we know it, but as I’m reading, I get the feeling that you don’t know that you’re actually slow playing a monster. Btn can be bluffing without knowing that they’re bluffing which adds many combos of hands that are gonna take a vlauy line. Once we don’t 3-bet, we must check/raise flop (2.5x at least {65*2+1/2*pot=$185 all day}). We don’t have a heart, the A of heart is not on the board. It’s very hard for us to be beat. Btn is gonna bet/fold a lot of hands and bet/call with worse. With the appropriate stack sizes we should be setting up a turn or river jam. As played though, we should check/call river because our hand is under repped.
Hand 5: No problems at all with folding mid pairs pre. When playing deep enough we should call against specific villains e.g. players who don’t c-bet often or players who aren’t bluff-happy.
Hand 6: We caught the best turn in the deck. We call to play fit or fold on the river. any card that doesn’t improve us on the river, is bad for us to bluff (screen all possible rivers and think about it, we’re getting the old sigh-call all day). However, we should lead if checked to on river aces and raise all straights or flushes of course.
Hand 7: Fold pre. Stack sizes are important in every hand. We basically got lucky. I like bet/bet/bet. Your reasoning for opening this hand should not even cross your mind. According to the logical argument of the reason, we should also fold good cards because we look too spewy and playing lots of hands 😀 right? The table image is circumstantial. We will fold bad cards and open good cards. I do the same sometimes and idk why, but I’m an amazing player off the table and just gonna sound smart here 😀
Hand 8: Congrats!
Hand 9: love the way it was played. I like raising turn too. Stack sizes are missing.
Hand 10: standard.
Hand 11: fold pre
Hand 12: fold. We would fold all higher pairs here especially QQ because we’re blocking many bluffs. This is a two pair+ and if not, it is okay to get bluffed here because this is rarely a bluff.
Crazy bonus hand: Great fold. I like 3-betting JJ in this spot, again, against correct stack sizes, it’s just a bad timing.
keep it up man.
Hey Guy!
For sure man, hit me up when you’re in Detroit.
My intention when posting these hands was to discuss whether stacking off with a set when playing for <100bb effective is a good play long term or not. I play a bit of PLO and don’t have “emotional” blockers that prevent me from folding sets. We’ve all done it; sets on one to a straight or one to a flush boards, no problems.
So it’s not about how I got sucked out on with top set or how I punted my stack with bottom set. It’s really about the “fixed rule” that I operate by.
In hand1 there’s only on draw on the flop, the draw got there on the turn. We’re blocking top pair heavily. If I agree with your analysis, I think checking back the turn is a the way to go. However, to answer your question, with so few BBs behind, I’m calling any river bet.Hand2 again, it’s the fact that the raise came from the shorty. It’s very hard for us to be beat against a UTG limp/call range. Not always, but in general. I think had I not opened pre and limped, I’d still 3-bet the flop and maybe fold to a 4-bet jam because they always have T8 there. If the UTG had me covered or had $500+ behind I’d have called and he would have most likely slowed down on the turn because the flush got there and maybe got to a cheap showdown with my bottom set. But, it’s hard to fold sets to a shorty on draw-heavy boards.
Thanks for your feedback Guy.
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback John.
When I say “a fixed rule” I mean to say a standard play which I deviate from at times.In hand 1 villain is most likely on a flush draw (the most obvious draw there). He’s not bad, but he loves playing, one of those ones. So he’s OOP, I’m blocking top pair heavily, and he would not be able to call with most of his range there. It was kinda obvious that he hit the flush on the turn, but there’s just too much in the pot and I have to go with it.
Hand2: I actually went all in on the flop man 😂. Guy who raised had only $225 behind after his raise. The donk bet changed the action significantly, I agree. So, I made my decision on the flop. I decided that the raiser (Utg) doesnt have enough 10 8, JJ, or TT in his range. I can’t see Utg limp calling with any of these hands because it’s a bad play. Utg also didnt have enough money behind. I put him on a pair+ draw or a double draw. I actually was worried about the fish in BB more.
I agree with you that his action was very strong (raising the flop with the original raiser still behind him). I just couldn’t get away from it.
Hey @hondascott thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I could have folded A3o pre or check/called turn & river. While in retrospect shoving here is clearly a bad play (because we’re only getting called by better), at the time I found enough reasons to shove.
Sometimes I find myself making horrendous plays for made up reasons on the spot and all the study and preparation goes out the window. I don’t know why.
I appreciate your feedback man! Gl
@wglenneyv Thank you for sharing your thoughts William.
I agree with leading the flop in hand 1. I should have a leading range there. I put the A3o hand through solvers; I should be check calling all along. At the time, villain looked he’s in hero call mode and he has many pocket pairs in the spot. i’m beat by better aces, JJs, and 88s. not that I’m defending this logic now, but that was my thinking at the time. I did not play well at all during that tourney.
Thanks again man.
Unlucky man. With two players in the hand you almost always have to 3-bet. I think you would’ve lost less had you 3bet pre. Pocket 9s is calling and prolly pealing the flop as they flopped a higher pair to the board as well.
The shove is unnecessary. You’re getting called by KK and maybe QQ. Draws are folding because it’s a massive shove. You’re getting called by straights and sets.
I’ve made the same mistake many times and I think that fast playing high pocket pairs is the way to go.Hey man!
Twin River sounds like a zoo. I play regularly at MotoCity Casino, Detroit and they have a 500K bad beat jackpot in addition to the $500 every half an hour high hand promotion on some week days. I only play 2-5 or the 5-5 RoundxRound. When I’m there playing 1-2 (50-200) waiting on my seat in other games, the action is as you described; open/call/call/call/call 6 way action is not uncommon and everybody is playing fit or fold strategy. Everyone is playing for the promotions and want you to limp with them. All of your old men coffee, old ladies knitting, poker fans, budlight dudes are playing 45% of their range pre and they’ll tell you about it 😀 Insane.
I had a similar spot a few months ago: 1/2 NL I straddled UTG to $5. UTG+1 makes it $13. Five callers before it gets to me. I looked down at QQ and I have everyone covered effective stack is $230. Original raiser has $90ish behind, giving that he’s the most likely villain to call a raise and probably has a range of 77+, AJ+ we want to isolate him… we go all in :D. Original raiser calls everyone else fold. we lost to AKo.
In your spot, without the stacks details, I think raise is in order; make it ridiculous $120-175. We want to take it down pre. We have the 4th best hand possible in hold ’em preflop, we have to show strength. We are closing the action & we can simply complete, but we chose to make it really big, that’s very very strong. Realistically, the first raiser is the only person who has AA,KK,QQ in his range. So, we have possibly the second best hand pre, if not the best hand. Another thing that I consider when there are many callers is their ranges. In low stakes, most opponents are high-cards-heavy. They have all the Ax and Broadways. This increases the value of a made hand/pocket pair in my opinion. If this hand was streamed or on tv with cards up, I bet you you’ll see lots of AQ, Aj, A10, KQ, KJ, QJ, 10s-2s. We do very well against many of these hands especially that all ’em donks holding each other’s outs.
Interesting spot, but we should not hate on the donks. We should embrace them.
I agree with John however, this turn is a great spot to check in my opinion if you wanna incorporate some checks with big hands. You have many kings in your range, but what if you have 10s,JJ, QQ, AQ, and the rest of your 3-bet range OOP which you do a lot of the time, would you jam as well? It is very exploitable if you’re only shoving here when you have it and because we rarely have it, I would consider checking the turn for balance if you’re playing against some of the players often or early on in the session.
