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I like putting in a 3bet here pre instead of the flat. I like a fold better than a flat. Flopping 1 pair (which is the most likely thing for you besides missing) isnt exactly a great spot for you, especially letting people flat behind you preflop. playing this hand heads up in position with the preflop raiser is a much better situation to be in than 5 way oop with a hand that can be dominated and almost no information about the other players in the hand.
try not to think about “it worked well”. being results oriented can lead you into some pretty bad play down the road. trust me. lol.
Sizing of that 3bet would depend on where the other flat callers were. You said 4 callers including yourself, but didnt say if there were before or after you, or in the blinds… all this stuff matters.
Also, you said you were CO, but then said the CO bets 20 on the flop and you call. was it the HJ who bet 20? it matters if its the preflop raiser, or not. and what position it actually was. What was the rest of the board texture? Q high with 2 diamonds leaves a lot out. Q73 and Q89 are very different flops here.
you say that you think the button was drawing, but a 3rd diamond comes on the turn and you keep calling with 2nd pair? and again when the board pairs with the button left to act behind? why? what did you think he was drawing to if not diamonds? (was there straights out there, need those other cards if so.)
IMO, it is very dependent on how many people, and which people are in the hand. Position, stack sizes, player tendencies, stakes, your image, etc etc… all that stuff needs to come into play
If its 5 way action on a limped preflop hand… fold. easy (unless the math to boat draw demands a call of course)
If its heads up on a raised and 3bet hand (esp smaller stakes), then I would be much much more likely to go to war with my set here.
if you are playing with someone who only bets monsters, you fold. If its someone creative, willing to semi bluff then you have to think about it. If its someone who will jam AA into this board then its pretty hard not to call.
There are so many variables that its impossible to answer your question “generally”.
I think you might have a Typo Brad. SMP flop is QQ6 but written above is QQ7. I cant imagine you folded AQ on a QQ77 board here so it must be QQ67.
Anyway, that’s a pretty gross spot. Do you think this guy plays at you like this (and the Ep.38 QJd hand) because he watches and knows you can make folds? Seems he takes some odd lines at you. Or does he do this with everyone?
It seems like in your thought process above you are willing to give him credit with Q6 or Q7 because of past play, but you didnt mention 66 or 77. Did you not think these were in play? I am just curious why. Especially if you are deep, I feel like calling off $35 to set mine against Bard Owen is a likely situation. But then again maybe he raises it up because preflop it folds to him in the BB with the button straddle on right? So you’re already heads up. I dunno. Seems like this guy plays to the beat of his own drum (playing against you at least).
Do you think this guy plays this hand the same way with KQ, QJ or QT? If the answer is yes, I think you have to call this off and just pay the man when you are beat.
I can totally see why you folded. With the turn lead/reraise the only things you can realistically beat is QK-Q9 right? I dont know if I would have been able to do it though (right or wrong) in a raised button straddle situation. Esp in the lower stakes, I find that people have a really hard time believing you actually have a hand when you are on the button straddle and come in with a raise. They defend wider which does allow Q6/Q7 to be more likely, but they are also more likely to play back at you when they think its unlikely that you connected. From the villains perspective, you raise to $35 pre, then bet down to $30 on the paired flop. To him this could be a Cbet with AK/JJ or really any 2 cards. So he floats. The turn gives him a little equity with his back door draw and so he puts in a blocker bet, you raise. He decides he is gonna make a play at you. I cant get into his head, but if your turn raise makes him believe you have AA/KK, he believes you are folding to his fireworks. The only scary hands for him are AQ 77 66. Im discounting QQ. And if he is wrong, he has outs vs AA/KK/AQ (although his hand does block aces… but the board blocks queens more)
I think at the end of the day you can take some solace in the fact that this player is going to make huge mistakes along the way (lets remember our QJd hand!). Along with that is going to come some high variance situations. This time you made the incorrect fold, but its the low variance route in a situation that you didn’t think you were good. There will be better spots where you are good and he 5-bet jams again on you. You cant be correct every time, but you will get another chance.
Thank you for sharing.
Anyone Still interested, we have made several groups now. One for low stakes hand analysis, one for mid stakes hand analysis, one for PLO and one for general poker conversations… its all on groupme. Just PM me if you are interested.
I dont think I would call such a big bet (10% of my stack) heads up to set mine here against a good player who is likely raising with a hand better than yours in the SB. Especially if this good player is good enough to lay down AA or KK post flop. If its some loose rec player who can never fold AA… then maybe. But just based on odds to hit your set plus the likeliness that you get paid off with an entire stack later (by a good player) just seems unlikely. at best you’re a coin flip, but its likely pair over pair, and you either have to set, or bluff later to win. and pray its not set over set. 44 is too small in this spot for me.
That being said I think the river call is borderline at best, because the straight gets there. There is some of his range that you can beat. JTc is the basement of his range here, but AK/AQ clubs makes perfect sense. I dont think most people fire out 3 times here with that connected of a board (especially the jam on the river) with 88-jj type hands. Really, when you call the river you hope he has AA or KK and played it way too aggressively. But these are the ONLY hands you can beat here. The other option is he hit his set, but then youre dead cause the board paired. So when you called what did you put him on?
I agree with Ian, mostly because the range of hands that call you will mostly have you dominated. So you fold out worse hands and get called by hands that are huge favorites. If they re-pop like he said, you have to fold it. But what if they call, and you hit the flop… then what? You have A8 off and the flop comes with any A on the board… what do you do? Bluff more? It IS a bluff because you are sick if they call right? Anyone playing any big A is a huge favorite here. So if your 1 pair flop hands will always win you a small pot (because opponent missed) or lose you a big pot (because you are dominated) it seems like a losing formula.
You’re better off bluffing with 89 instead of A8 where at least your hands will mostly be live, and easy to get away from unless you hit. And when you do hit big, it can be more disguised and maybe win you a big pot (or you fold a small pot).
You’re almost never winning a big pot with Ax and Kx “blocker” hands. Blockers are way over rated anyway. especially in preflop decision making I wouldn’t even consider them. But maybe that’s just me.
Dan,
These are some really good Meet up groups here. I would definitely check out Meetup.com for that kind of stuff. Especially outdoor stuff. One group I really like is called “pick up sports in las vegas”. Its run by a couple of good peoples, Its a great way to meet some people, and its basically zero commitment (which is good for me with my work schedule). I’d check that out for sure.I think I would have maybe raised on the flop because you are 3way action with a very wet board and very likely the best hand. That being said, on the turn I feel like your hand is under represented and is still likely best hand (esp with 2nd player tank folding). AA KK AQ and maybe even TT are all possible. Plus pair plus draw hands (flush or open ender?). You might be beat by top 2, or a set, but I think often enough you are good here to warrant the call.
6 way action preflop is a lot of hands out there to outflop, and had the hand played out vs someone who was not the preflop raiser, I would be more inclined to fold here I think (more worried about set, top2 or straight). But being that the preflop raiser was the aggressor the whole way, he very well could have AA, KK, AQ with A diamonds (or both diamonds? you dont say which 2 flop cards are diamonds) JT T9 (if one can be both diamonds) etc. I dont think QQ would take this line, because it folds out too many hands it can get value from.
you were 6way pre in a raised pot. you didnt give bet amount, so im going to assume $20 bet from EP raise. meaning $120 preflop pot.
$115 bet on the flop with 2 callers brings the pot to $465.
now you are heads up, facing an all in call of $850 to win $1315, or there abouts. If you are going to make this call (which I think I would based on above), why not use this money on the flop aggressively and stick in a raise? I would choose an amount that would seem to commit, because you and never getting bluffed off that. He bet $115 into 2 players on a $120 pot. other guy calls (draw?). So now pot size is $355 right? Its your action. If you raise here to $450-$525 ish (its almost half of your remaining $965 stack, I know) then what does EP raiser do? Does he jam “knowing” you “cant fold” (you can tho). If he does, you have a lot more info than you do in the line that played out, and you haven’t actually shipped it all off. None the less he is stronger than 1 pair if he does rejam. Also… top 2 or bottom set might actually fold here, so you have some equity in that. He has to worry about you AND the middle player (who is very likely on a single draw).Seems to me like post flop the hand played itself. Your thought process about the whole thing seems pretty solid to me. I don’t see how you are ever getting away from the hand after the river 9. There is literally 1 card in the deck to fear. BB special and all that jazz…? No way. You are just paying her off on this one. Be happy you weren’t deep.
The only thing I would ask is about the $20 pre. You said 4 limpers to you plus the blinds means there was $11 in the pot when the action came to you (I am assuming 1-2 game, but $16 so if 1-3). Now it’s super game dependent, but many places $12-$15 pre is standard open (crazy I know, but still). If this table is like that, you have to size up more pre with so many limpers already in there if you want to narrow the field/ranges. Again, I don’t know this game so maybe $20 was fine. Just food for thought.
Plus if you make it $24-$28, maybe she calls you anyway and nothing changes.
I mean the price is pretty good. call $290 to win a pot size at $915? Is my math right here…?
But with 2 all ins in front of you you would think ONE of them has something better than 1 pair. No flush draws right? A gut-shot here? TJ or QK? both of them? meh… sets all are in range, but so is 9T, KT and JQ. I mean maybe you can hope drunky is on a pure bluff or has JT (or QT) and old guy cant fold his QQ (orJJ)for his last $110 into this monster pot… but that’s some real optimism I think.
But more so I think that its a good fold because even if you think the pot odds make this situation “close enough” to get it in there (% of bluffs in the mix), the game seems lucrative enough that you don’t need to risk it in high variance close spots. If these guys MIGHT be jamming with less than top pair, then wait till you have it crushed then kindly ask them for their chips. No need to risk so much in this spot.
@peter,
In response on behalf of Jesse’s comment, he means that IF your AA is the best hand, the hands you would be up against with the most outs are QJ, QT and JT. All these hands have 4 outs to make a gut-shot straight and beat you. Every other hand that you would be beating with AA would have less outs (like TT for example has 2 outs). OR they are already ahead of you with Kx type of hand. Talking about the flop play, it was checked to the AA hand who bet out $80 essentially building a big pot. I am pretty sure Jesse was promoting the check back because if you are beat you are throwing away money, and if you are not beat, with so few outs… its not overly dangerous to give a free card (unlike if there were a flush draw out there). Meanwhile not many hands can call you confidently that you beat (but they might bluff raise you, gasp!). Surely not going to get 3 streets of value here from an under pair. However many of these hands will lead into you on the turn (if you checked the flop) which does pick you up an extra bet into the pot, without you risking reopening the action to a jam and either stacking off, or risking folding the best hand.Moving into check call mode here protects you from being bluffed, and also protects you from getting 310 big blinds in the middle with just one pair.
