@deekay
Active 2 years, 9 months agoForum Replies Created
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Pretty Nasty. I was just watching a Mariano vlog on a very similar situation. He was willing to call off a huge stack and if they guy had it… good for him. But given how lose he plays, as Mariano said “I’m happy to pay him off every time”. So although you lost the hand… you gotta target the lose play.
However, although he is very lose, has he been known to do something like that before. Was this insanely large, even for him? To me… just shoving that stack in is a little telling. It would be a little different if he check raised… that would seem more bluffy from a lose player. Rather than a straight on shove, which seems purposeful. I don’t know… you invested $30… I think you can just fold this one and move one. So what I’m saying is… either seems to be the right play. I think the only difference is if that river shove seemed a little too odd. Reading it…it did, but thats easy to say. Not sure if that was helpful but…
Pretty interesting hand and the run out is as ugly as it gets… especially the turn.
First, I think given the combo draws, I would want to size up a little more on your flop bet. Maybe 55-60. There is good likeliness that you will get a call and this allows you to charge a bit more. I think 40 is giving your opponent way too much value.
9h is horrific because it brings everything home. To me, this is the tough bet. Wouldn’t be terrible if you pot controlled and checked… but otherwise your down bet is fine. With no re-raise, I he has to be drawing to a pretty good or has the nut flush. I guess he has to be drawing to the straight… which seems weak. Pocket A-J or pocket Queens maybe. Its a a bit weird has hard to put him on a hand here.So for the river… its really difficult to put your opponent on a hand. I think you have it right that check calling is probably a preferable play… particularly with the spread limit. Because he can’t put out a pot size bet… check calling is the ideal pot control situation. I kind of like this play regardless, or even a small blocker bet… but with this low spread… basically by checking you are creating a blocker bet that can’t get re-opened. I love the check call.
There’s a lot I don’t understand here. Opened to $40. That seems ridiculous even for a 2-5 game. So not sure if that was normal or the game was playing big. Therefore I would have called, not raise. But if we think he was a super loose player, I would have raised to near $200.
After the flop, good flop for us, he opens to $50 into a $300 pot. With the over pair… I’m either going with the hand and putting in a big raise to $250 or I’m just calling if I fear he has an over pair (depends on the read of the player back to the huge initial bet of $40 and what that means).
On the turn, once the player re-raises. We’re done. There is no way a re-raise into two player means that our 10’s are good. We’re done.
Yes you won the hand, but its a heavy losing play in the long term. Glad you got satisfaction.
As a final note… Cowboys suck. Paying $160m to Dak is absurd. He’s not a top tier QB or hasn’t proven it yet. He’s done just ok vs. a horrific division and haven’t done well against winning teams. His biggest asset is completion % but he doesn’t throw the ball down the field a lot. Good luck with that. I expect Dallas to finish last in the division this year.David W did do a nice breakdown and not much to disagree with. The only thing I would have done differently is I would have raised more on the flop. I think we really want to charge this player and he’s not going to fold any decent King. So when he bet $5, I would have made it $20 or $25. Although i do understand that probably would have lost you more money, but I think its the more profitable play in the long run. A few other thoughts:
– Clearly this is a weak player limping with K-8 off in early position. So player history would have been relevant where a raise out of position would have been better play if we knew he often gets in weak.
– Generally speaking, big river bets and re-raises are always pretty telling at 1-2. I don’t think you played anything wrong… just something to keep the warning lights on.Chris… thanks for the comments. I haven’t read this post in a bit (obviously). Reading it back you and Patrick both make the astute observation that its not possible that they both have a 7, so one of them is on the flush draw. Therefore you want to charge/deny equity and represent a strong 7. However, given it was a mere $15 raise, its likely the big blind could have any 7, and middle position could have suited 7 which should be better than mine.
However, when the turn goes check, check. I think you are both right that I need to bet for value. A-7 definitely bets there. The only other wrench to throw at that analysis, is that it would be common for both players to check to the raiser.
Lets say I bet on the turn. Pot was $1100, and I bet $350. I’m not losing a player. Likely the big stack calls, which would give the odds to the flush draw to call. Now the pot would be 2100 on the river and it would likely check around to me and I would check at that point. I can’t imagine the missed flush going for it then after I’ve shown so much strength. So may have picked up a little more.
But overall, I agree now, needed to bet there to charge the draws or weaker hands. Yet so easy to break it down when you are not sitting next to a 6k stack. May have been a little too conservative, but I’m also ok with that line. Its great poker and I love it… even better to win as I think I cashed out of that session $4,460.I believe the flush draw was K-9. Made sense.
Chris’ comment is spot on and what I was eluding to on the type of player. Its easy to have a big hand in that situation, it wasn’t as easy to have a hand that beats you. So I would have thought A-5 was a monster and would have gone broke playing it. Which is why I think you over valued her tight image here. You are basically losing to a flopped set or 5-4 suited or if at all possible 6-7 suited (if they were spades). And given it was only about $90 more… I think its a no brainer call. It seems like the bad night weighed into your decision and that’s too bad. You were afraid of her flipping that nutted hand and then afterwards you would have said “obviously”. Plus… you hand was pretty well hidden. And you had blockers if you believe in the blocker theory. Yes means its less likely to have 6-7 but doesn’t mean they don’t have it.
The other thing I could have suggested is that when she lead out for $36, I think I would have like to see a re-raise there. This way you are charging draws and weaker hands, plus based on your read on her, this clearly means she has a good hand and not very likely to fold. My thought would have been to set up the river jam.
Question: If the river wasn’t a 3 and a total brick… would this have changed your action?Bottom line… if you are using sound fundamentals… and your instincts and reads have done well for you… then whether you were right or wrong here, things are just fine. Sometimes you have bad reads or make mistakes. Its a tough spot. Hahaha – but next time snap that off and get those chips!!
Hey Chuck… I think Herm covered most of the basics. The conclusion being that the only hands you are losing to… could she have – those small pairs or small suited connectors.
Granted she limped then fired… likely Ace rag or even Ace rag spades.
The one open question I have is what kind of player is she? Has she been known to bet aggressive… has she shown some capability understand the game?
I just don’t see a situation here where you could fold. I get being gun shy, but your hand is so strong. There’s just too many ways for you to win vs. lose.
The one thing I will disagree (sort of) with Herm is the pot odds. I think about this differently, because to me it doesn’t matter “would win this hand 1 out of every 3.5 times in this situation”, as it only matters if you win this one. What pot odds doesn’t consider is the analytics that you applied to this hand, either from instinct or read. If you truly had no solid information (like her playing style, table image, etc.) then all things remain the same and I think its an easy call. If she has a habit of only betting the nuts or when she does play a hand, she always bets aggressive… then this is helpful information to steer the pot odds more or less into your favor.
Let me say one more thing and please just take it constructive. Fear is a horrible emotion to base your decisions on. This is why professional players are so good… because they will consistently put you in uncomfortable situations. You have to look past that fear, and make the decision based on your capabilities. If you trust your instincts, and your instincts said fold… then so be it… move on. But just don’t fold out of fear of being wrong and having a bad night. It only takes one good hand to change that around.
Don’t beat yourself up too bad about it… the one tough thing about playing 1-2 is that players can be very difficult to read and understand.Depends where you play. Makes the difference on how big the 2-5 game plays. But generally speaking, the weak players tend to over play top pair and weak kickers. Unlike 1-2 players where typically a shove on the river or any big river bet will get me to fold. Or they are calling looking for some pathetic gutter and they hit… making you to never put them on such a possibility. I think what you get at 2-5 is less chaos, therefore hand analysis is typically a little more predictable. But stacks are typically also deep enough that players are creative and bluffing is more prevalent as the nominal value of betting obviously more relevant. Squeeze plays are more relevant and 3 and 4 bets are more common. Far less limping because of that and therefore less players tend to go to the flop.
That being said… obviously you are putting that much more at risk. Game used to be a little tighter when max buy in was $500. Now that it typically ranges from $1k-$1.5k its just a bigger volume swing or impact to the bankroll. Its not bad though from time to time to try 2-5.
Just make sure you are playing with the same comfort level… don’t want to make bad folds because you are fearful of the bigger pots.I absolutely disagree with a shove on the Turn. He probably folds and you give up all that value. I think the flop bet was a little strong as I would have like to see down bet a little more for value. But you did get the call and this is great. We are setting up for the Jam river.
What are we targeting now. We are targeting smaller pairs, suited connectors that caught and all A-x.
As the board ran out, this could be a little scary that a small to mid pair got there, but given that you put $125 of your $225 into the pot I think those no situation we are folding and making a screaming vomiting call if we have to.
On the turn, you bet $75 into $160 pot. I do like this bet as we are charging those draws and weaker hands. But I still may have down bet just a little bit… we want our opponent to call. But have to consider we want to jam on the river so its just a question of what bet will force him to call on the river. Maybe $75 was the right turn bet given he had $85 left. Something to consider.It is very odd that the small blind shoved with nothing as you were showing strength the whole way. Maybe it was a bluff on the four card straight. You are beating too many hands to fold. But this would have concerned me a little bit. My fear would have been his small-mid pair caught or his weak ace just filled the straight. Sometimes at 1-2 its so difficult to figure out your opponent, because they are so bad. Did this guy actually think he was good? Did he think you were A-K? If so, why not check call. Leading out makes no sense and could have really screwed you up on a read.
I think you played the hand pretty well. And if he made the straight or turned into a set… well then we are losing the stack. Just the nature of the game. But I think you played it nicely on getting max value, and clearly you did.
Sorry I haven’t posted back. Didn’t note your response for some reason.
You are right that the game is much more sophisticated, so getting great value when you have top-top is much harder. I think the best way to learn and help is by hand discussion… which is what most do on this site. This you can read back a hand that didn’t go well and others can chime in on what they would have done or why something was smart or poorly played. Learning things that you haven’t considered is just a tremendous way to improve.
You mentioned a few things you are trying, but I would ask… what is the strategy? You should be playing wider hand ranges or 3-betting more with a strategy. Hopefully you are doing things with purpose because the hand situation dictates that. This is why I loved “The Course”. It helped me improve in most areas, but especially:
– getting max value on the river
– punish players playing too many hands
– punish weaker players
– consider pot size depending on how much equity I have in the hand (build the pot with huge equity, pot control with less equity)
– knowing when to bet based on potential hand ranges.
– considering how many streets of value I haveAgain, I can’t speak to online poker these day… all to live poker.
So if V is a good player, I don’t like the 3-bet with a weak hand. If he was the type who played a lot of hands… ok. But this is you now playing a weaker hand against a strong player. Not a good start.
He of course is going to check to the raiser and this could hit both player ranges. I don’t mind the the c-bet as he easily could have had mid pair. The call here tells me he has some sort of value.
The Turn Jack is a great card. We could possibly have the best hand or we improve our equity if we are in fact behind. However, when he checks again, I would have preferred to check back to control the pot. We probably don’t want this pot to get oversized.
The clubs hits the river and he leads out. This is a little concerning. What do we think he’s playing. To bet out on the river, the big fear is that he has K-10 / Kc-10c or AK / AcKc. I think we check call QQ. I think he can also have weaker clubs like 7-8. Nothing else makes sense.
I don’t think there’s a situation where we are raising. I think put in the call and see where we are at.Good feedback. It was one of the most intense hands I can remember playing in a long while. Weird mix between a weaker player (MP) and the small blind who seems to play straight forward but has a mountain of chips.
When you know the hands, everything makes sense. Guy flops trips with weak kicker… straight forward player so he’s betting to not let it check through. MP raises. Given the weak flop and having the two clubs… raise makes sense. When we both call… I get letting it check around. The small blind will check call and no reason now to bet for the MP or me. If it checks around on the river, I’m betting for certain. Makes sense that the (MP) player bets given he can’t win otherwise. But at the same time, betting into two players is foolish. He wasn’t good enough to know that he is representing something very good.
I really came very close to folding. I’m sandwiched and MP can’t be betting into two players with nothing. What am I beating? Apparently only 8-7.
Huge pot to sweep. Like $1800. The last thing I wanted to see is betting on the turn or even calling the river and seeing the big stack put us all in.
To answer your question… the hand played quite slowly. No one acted too fast. It was complex and certainly when a guy is sitting at the table with $6k. That will slow things down. This was at the Borgata. So 2-5 at the Borgata… $6k is a huge stack. Most strong players will be in the $2-$3k range as the buy in is capped at $1k.Funny, when I read he shoved, given his 3-bet… Jacks was the likely answer. Interesting situation. The only person I’ve ever seen make that move – telling the other person what he has, clearly the better hand for a pure bluff move – is Daniel Negraneu.
Here’s the thing though. The usually when a player asks if the other player has the nuts, it typically means they have 2nd or 3rd nuts. And he seems cautious until the Jack hits. I’m not sure how you can let this go, but in that situation, I have to read Jacks or Aces. What else would he shove with? Unless he’s Negraneu.
As far as the 4-bet situation. I like the 4-bet for two reasons. (1) They’re splashy players, so the likelihood of them coming along is greater, so we want to play a bigger pot (2) we charge big hands like A-K suited, A-Q suited, and smaller pairs. I wouldn’t worry about 4-betting giving your hand away as most, especially splashy players don’t read it that way at 1-2, or 1-3. But I am also ok with you playing the hand under repped, especially with players who are going to likely fire more at the pot. HOWEVER, the big kicker is that by you calling a 3-bet, this basically gave away your hand at the table anyway. Therefore, I would have like to see you 4-bet. Regardless… you got cold decked which is unfortunate.
So, my conclusion is you could have gotten away from the hand of you were able to think clearly and pick up that basically you were only beating Queens or Tens and his shove didn’t make sense if he thought you were better (given his caution on the flop). But I would say that if you were able to find the fold there, you wouldn’t need this website : ) That would be some high level play.
One of the weakest parts of my game over the last few years as been getting max value. I felt like every time I bet big on the river, I would get a fold, and when I valued bet, I got snapped. This is a huge part of the game as getting those payoffs are the difference between profitable sessions and unprofitable ones. Never considered how much skill goes into finding the right value. Once I’ve adjusted… well its made a big difference.
The key is to focus on what you think your opponent is playing, and then what does it look like you are representing. From there you can determine how many streets of value you think you can get. For instance, your opponent having top pair top kicker is more likely to get 3 streets of value, than someone on a flush draw. Maybe only two streets if they missed. This helps you determine when to check or check it back vs when you need to keep betting.
Another great example of this is taking a chance when you think someone is repping a big pocket pair. You call with a small pair looking for the set. When you make it… you want to target max value as it will be very hard for this person to fold if you get a garbage flop.
I have to say one of the biggest tools that have helped this is reading “The Course” by Ed Miller. I actually picked it up when I read an interview from Brad Owen where he noted that as a must read. Incredibly helpful in this area… especially at the smaller stakes
Interesting hand… nice going.
I think Brad would tell you that if this guy is playing way too many hand, and you find an interesting hand like KJ suited… I would have raised it to $80. But given we have position. A call is fine too. Just saying that if we think he is always betting weak… we need to charge him for his weak hands.
Its a pretty wet flop. In this situation, giving we think this player is weak (although a 10 is certainly in his range), I don’t mind a re-raise off his c-bet with top pair and backend diamond draw. We are charging weaker Jacks and the flush draw. But given we have an over… I think we are ok to call and proceed with caution.
Its interesting to me that you chose to re-raise after the turn. I don’t like that. Too many hands get there as you point out. I think here I would prefer a call to control the pot.
On the river, I don’t think there is a situation where you are folding. If you didn’t think you were good the whole way, then why are we still in the hand. Yes, its a tough call and we could lose, but I think you have to trust your read here on the player. There’s a good chance top top is good.
The other thing I will add is that over the years, I’ve noted that weak players will eyeball you when they are bluffing. They’re trying to intimidate you. These days I rely very little on physical tells, but I still see it enough times. I think you made a good read on this guy and have to stick with it. You have top pair against a weak player… I like it. Nice hand.
